Should I stay or should I go

#1

Hello all,

I just wanted to email as I’m trying to make a descision on staying with A:M fully or going to another 3d app.

I have used A:M for several years, but not actively until I got into making my full 3d movie. For awhile I deviated to Poser/Zbrush/Wings3d mix, but I was very limited in what I could do use Poser as my primary animation package.

AT the time A:M was very buggy when I left, but now upon my recent return 2 years ago it was not as buggy and more functional than ever and kept getting more powerful.

The things I like most are that i know how to use it, it is fun to use, the price point is great +subscription per year is awesome idea, animation with it is wonderful. Nothing beats it in feautres and ease of use

However

I am creating an animation from scratch and A:Ms uniqueness is also it’s downfall. You see I cannot do the project entirely alone, it has been a challenge finding help among A:M users. At times I feel like an Island. The thing though is there is a ton of help out there and folks who believe in your ideas and who will offer a hand. BIG PROBLEM THOUGH!!! Many of them are Poly modellers. Poly modelling programs work together. Zbrush, Silo, Modo, Sketchup, Wings 3d, Rhino all great modelling programs, but in no way compatible with creating A:M characters. I have many friends who would love to help on the project, but don’t do splines.
A:M being as powerful as it is, is limiting me to a smaller group.

Whereas if I moved to another program, I could obtain more help.

Also on top of that, in the Poly world PROPS are endless (ANIMATEABLE props) This is another speed factor.

IT is the modellig of A:M that is slowing me down and smaller pool of help.

It is a hard choice, so asking for advice.

Should I stay or should I go?

#2

I hear ya bro…

I know the agony of modelling in A:M. But don’t lose hope. Remember, we are artists… A:M and other 3d packages are just TOOLS. It is up to us to be creative. All packages have their own strength and weaknesses… use this to your advantage.

From time-to-time you will come across situations when you need the help of other 3d programs. For example, I have to make a complex background of an island… this is very easy to accomplish with Bryce. I do my main actors with A:M, then composite that background.

Most production don’t stick to one program. Although this is possible with A:M, sometimes its easier and faster when you mix with other programs.

Polys you say? I love robots! Gundam, Robotech, Voltron etc… I do my polys with Silo, convert them with Wings to be on the .mdl format.

I guess what I’m trying to say is be FLEXIBLE. Even ILM or Dreamworks use a combination of Lightwave, 3DMax, Maya, Softimage on their major production. Same technique can be applied with Mid-range apps like A:M, Poser, Bryce etc.

Doenst matter how you make it… what matters is you finish a kick ass movie

#3

Yeah, why not consider getting a decent compositing program, and use everything at your disposal? AM, Wings, etc.

lafnjack

#4

I guess what I’m trying to say is be FLEXIBLE. Even ILM or Dreamworks use a combination of Lightwave, 3DMax, Maya, Softimage on their major production. Same technique can be applied with Mid-range apps like A:M, Poser, Bryce etc.

That is the one problem. Look at the list.
Lightwave, Maya, Softimage, Poser, Vue, Bryce, Cinema 4d, all have some ability to work together with a plugin or shared format, without compositing.

ol A:M is kinda left out of the group, unless you bring in a compositor.

I think I will take advice to use compositing trick, and when I save the money I think I will just move along to Cinema 4d, it has a similiar feel, ease of use that A:M does.

Animation is not as great in this package but has the FBX format which I do have motionbuilder to work with and there is a module called MOCCA.

I am definately going to think on this more. Thanks guys for your suggestions.

#5

No prob.

C4d? If you want my advice… keep on saving that money and when you can, get Lightwave… its best for the long run. It has most of the modules you need included in the package. Plus, should you decide to go further with games, Lightwave is very good with this too. I use it a lot with the games I make.

But that’s just me :wink:

#6

By the way… Lightwave is coming up with a lite version called Inspire 3D… the beta is due to be out soon. The retail price will be around $195 — its a steal!

#7

well if u didnt end up buying C4d, i hope you end up buying lightwave for 500 as a upgrade . i did and i uses my AM S/N . who would have thought 299 program got me a 1600 program for 500, then i bought MODO for 299 ( Lightwave discount), damn i got some good deals. dont forget with lightwave you can also get a good deal with Mirage, and C4D.

#8

I been using Maya and Max for 6 years, I recently switch to A:M in 2004. Because the price was right and all the feature is there for me to use also I’ve been splining in Max, easy layout and everything instead of so many many 3rd party plugin cram in one package. And I can’t wait to get my hand on A:M version 12 because of the cloth and compositing.

There’s people who uses Max that know how to use spline, if find the right person. I see what you mean, theres no plugin etc… So no one can help you. But in the long run A:M give less headache. If your working on a film or a short for yourself I say go for A:M if you are trying to impress company to hire you, I suggest using Maya or Max so that way they can say hmmm… he know the software at least. Ether way all 3D package is all the same just knowing how to use it is the problem.

A:M $299 for modeling and animation.
Zbrush $489 For texture bump etc…
Adobe Video Collection $1,499 For editing also with photoshop,

EQUAL $2,287

And still less than 3d Studio Max and Maya.

If money the issue and modeling way is the issue this is the way.

If money not the issue go for higher package.

#9

Yeah modelling is the issue, and polys.

I hate modelling with Splines, it takes to long compared to polys. I can get a whole character in Zbrush in 30 mintues in what would take me several hours in splinemanship.

Spline modelling has it’s strong points, but to many it straight up sucks. If you go to the A:M forum you see that question all the time, how to xfer polys to splines. Comes up ALL the time. You think Hash would have at least listened by now.

The thing to is I do not want to model everything from scratch. You know how many poly props are out there? Cars, buildings, trash, bridges, plants, etc. Why model each at a time when all you need is a generic building? With A:M I have problems using those props, because the POLY issue.

Zbrush I love for modelling, it’s fun, fast. I seriously doubt the fasterst A:M modeller could beat the fastest Zbrush modeller.

A:M however is just like Zbrush when it comes to ANIMATION. It is getting to that ANIMATION part that takes too LONG.

I just wish that someone made a tool to transfer Poly models successfully. A TRACING tool for Poly2Spline. Mabye a hybrid A:M modeller, gives you the feel of polys or clay, but has splines behind the front end.

What special is Lightwave running? I may think about that.

#10

In my experience, character modelling takes only a small amount of time in comparison to other things. when making a short. I can easily take the same time to tweek some important eye movement as it takes to model a character (depending on the complexity of the character).

For a short that I have been working on, I took about three days on character design (a whole sketch-book) and the model took no more than about a day to make. I decided to try to make my own killer rig and the meat of this took about a week. Deformation rigging is the big killer for me.

I am considering scrapping the character design and doing a proper job of it. Modelling the new design is the least of my worries - working out what it is going to look like is a real challenge.

I expect animation to take me at least a year - even if I do get a lot of time to work on it (which I don’t) - and it isn’t going to be a long animation.

Texturing, lighting and rendering could easily take three to four months (I am anal about these things).

You CAN use props from other programs if they don’t have to have nice deformations. If you are going to animate a zbrush model in another program then you would want to make sure that it is based on a mesh that is made for animation. There is a big difference between making a quality, animatable mesh all in quads, and knocking up a nice still in zbrush. Splines force you to make a mesh that will animate well.

So I would say that character modelling shouldn’t be a major concern of yours. Do some tests to see how well you can import polygon props and stuff like that and see where you are.

Also, the best way to get an animation made is to keep your expectations low and make everything as simple as possible. Then you only have the animation to worry about (the biggest job).

And you could always pay me to make the characters for you :slight_smile:

#11

Something I always have to remind myself, the grass always seems to look greener on the other side of the fence.
The majority of people that flit around programs probably never learn any of them well enough to produce the sort of quality work they are constantly seeking.
True, if you need to operate in a mixed environment, then it’s an advantage to use a poly based app. It is however, relatively easy to composite stuff rendered in A:M with output from other programs.

Personally, I love modelling with splines, but Zbrush really looks the business. If I knew I was always going to be modelling and texturing then A:M might not be my first choice. But I don’t actually do that much modelling per project. The majority of the time is spent texturing, rigging, animating and lighting and this is where A:M excels.

I’ve noticed even on the Hash forums, very few people animate their models. Unless you’re certain you can’t work on your own or find like minded people on the A:M forums, my advice would be to stick with what you know.

#12

I guess it is just speed. Modelling is not my true love. No patience for that. Animating is what I truly desire.

Zbrush I learned to model with it in less than an hour and could turn up some kind of result in less than an hour.

A:M modelling well let’s just say not so lucky in that. I just wish I could get those models out.
I just wanted to include a quick 15 minute model I did in Zbrush using Zpheres. It ain’t great or anythinng but 15 minutes nonetheless.

Can that be accomplished in 15 Hash minutes?

I think I have made my descision though. I am going to stick with A:M for at least this one short. After I save some money I may just leave it all together. Now to find something with a similiar feel. Cinema4d seems to be the closest.

I love A:M but that whole modellig thing kills me as I’m sure it does many, otherwise the whole Poly to Spline question would never come up.

#13

The one thing with Zbrush that I noticed is when you import the model into max or maya you will get alot of polygon that are messy, so far that I notice from experiences.

All I’m saying is when you get the hang of spline it will be simple to animate and model becasue there isnt that much of cp or called vertex to envelope.

When you are doing short film or features there is no simple way of doing stuff. Be patience is the key in everything.

#14

Zbrush and C4D work great together. I use both together all the time and it works great. I almost never get polys that need to be fixed and the UV’s come across with no problems, if you make the UV’s in C4D or just use the ZB ones it works fine. You cant go wrong with C4D and how fast they have been developing that program. Wiat till siggy to see what they come up with for version 10. I always keep an eye on AM because of the animation tools, I’m waiting for hash to port the animation tools so you can use them with other programs kinda like MB or Messiah.

#15

You mean the model it the attached file? If so then yes - easily.

Modelling in splines isn’t really the issue - it’s all about experience and that will only come from a lot of modelling.

Some say (poly modellers that is) that top Poly modellers can turn out quality models far quicker than Spline modellers. I have no idea - I’ve never successfully modelled in Polys before - ever (I’ve tried but it doesn’t make sense to me - I prefer to build models rather than carve/mould them)

Cheers

David

#16

Hash stole my money the way I see it. I never did get it to run stable on my Mac, amid their “oh, you need to upgrade again” answers. I’ll continue to warn people about it’s instability on the Mac until I see a refund check in the mail. If you got it to run well, more power to you. You’re probably on a PC.

I ended up bellying-up for Maya. I just couldn’t feel confident pitching myself to clients with the “island” that A:M was, both for compatiblity and stability.

-Greg.

#17

I think ZBrush Modeller is excellent for Organics. What I like is if I want to make a mouth, I take a circle, draw a hole where the mouth needs to be.

With A:M I have to extrude, move points around, stitch it back up, yada yada.

Make mouth 10 minutes=Zbrush
Make mouth 1 hour=A:M

I think we should have a race. That would be awesome. A simple face making race. See how fast it is, using “WINK” screen capture in real-time and see.

I think A:M is a wonderful tool, even if they charged 1,000 for it. It works great. The latest versions are really stable. It is just that whole Poly thing. It truly works by itself. Your alone with the Hasher’s.

With C4D, I can work with the Mayan’s, The Silos, The Lightwavers, The MODO bunch, the Motionbuilders, Those with the VUE, the Poser’s, the Zbrusher’s, the redbull’s with WING’s, Those who are bent to the MAX. They all in some way work together, through OBJ, through FBX, etc.

Except C4D has it’s limitations in Animation (you have buy a module just to animate well with it)

I think A:M guys should make and sell a seperate modelling tool. Something that allows you to model in splines if you like or give you modeller that feels polygon with a spline base.

A translation program, poly to spline. A program to trace out Splines.

Cinema 4d has a thing called N-Gons which cuts out all the triangles and makes the model easier to use.

That would be awesome for A:M to have. Instead of being an Island it would be a continent all it’s own. Maybe even the most powerful tool out there.

Why can’t they even humor the idea? A:M does not have to be like the other programs, and should not be, but it should be able to work in some way with other programs.

#18

You can model in other program such as max or maya and import it to A:M and then animating them.

#19

They (Hash) did humor the idea (in a fashion). Bowing to pressure they attempted to implement a poly based cloth into AM (the origianl version of Simcloth in v12 alpha). It worked well by itself and could even be made to simulate and react with spline models - but it could not be integrated into the Spline based tools so that it could be hand tweaked/animated - end of story.

Polys and Hash Splines do not mesh. Martin has attempted to explain this and why a number of times but few choose to listen or accept his word. Poly models have to be Re-interpreted by AM to make them usable - and then they still have to be tweaked. Its a bit like internet language translation. It can convert Russian to English but that doesn’t mean you can comprehend the result. Yes, Hash could completely re-write all their code to suit but what is the point? Why then would they want to compete with the plethora of poly based programs that are already competing with each other for survival?

I’m not supporting either position - I’m happy with what AM currenltly offers me and as I mentioned previously I can’t make head or tail of doing things in Poly programs (I’ve tried with PLE Maya but gave up) I guess I’m just old and set in my ways.

Cheers

David Higgins
Canberra, Australia

#20

Flog -

I think you need to make your mind up to one thing in order to be happy - A:M (from a pipeline standpoint) is as it is. It will not be an open flow. Once you come around to that I think your decision will be easier. Then you can move on with your project. Ask yourself the following questions :

  1. How much money can I spend on software?
  2. What software do I like/enjoy using?
  3. What software can I get my film(s) done in?
  4. What software will the rest of my team be comfortable and competent using?

If your team will/can make a switch to A:M, and the one doing the modeling (maybe you) can get ahold of spline modelling then perhaps A:M is your choice. If not, I think there is your answer. Beating up on a software because it doesn’t give you the choices you want is non-productive (believe me, i’ve done it enough) and isn’t getting you any closer to your goal which is to produce something.

If your team is stuck on poly modeling then I think your choice is a “no brainer”. I hope you get it all solved because I’ve seen the concepts and they are looking good.

…d