Robert the Bruce vs Sir Henry de Bohun (1314)

#33

Well its been a loooong time since I’ve up-dated this thread. Having gone through artist block I’ve seem to have lost that get up and go factor :hmm: … hopefully it is starting to return. Another reason for the long update is that I am trying to keep the image as historically accurate as possible so that once I start reading into one subject it leads to another and takes up much of my time.

Also I’m having problems with the knight Henry de Bohun which is supposedly the nephew or some might say could have been the son of Humphrey de Bohun, although after looking at Humphrey de Bohun’s family tree I do not see a son or nephew by that name. That does not mean that he did not exist it is not uncommon for non important members of the family to be left out the family tree or he could have been a knight associated with the Bohun family. You might say well why does it matter… actually this factor has a great impact on how the image will look.

I fond this rendition of the scene on the internet by Mark Churms http://www.markchurms.com it shows Robert the Bruce and Sir Henry de Bohun, but in actually fact shows Robert the Bruce and Humphrey de Bohun Earl of Hereford. The coat of arms is the key and is past down from father to eldest son. So lets us say Sir Henry de Bohun was the son of Humphrey then Sir Henry de Bohun coat of arms would be the same as his fathers but with the addition of a horizontal red bar over the top of the shield as displayed in my concept sketch.

If Henry de Bohun is not directly related to Humphrey then I have no right to use the families coat of arms and will most likely have to make one up for poor old Henry.

I’m currently still working on the detail with Robert the Bruce in this image, while Henry de Bohun is basically finished and waiting to be textured he is accurate for the time period from what I can tell of English knights effigies who died between 1300 and 1325. Robert the Bruce is on his pony which took I inspiration from the highland pony one of Britain’s oldest breeds stocky as ponies are its a hardy animal with lots of stamina.

BryanY thanks for the advice on the skin.
Pap87, recently I did further tests with UV mapped chain mail and looks fine when seen from a distance. If I had to do a close up shot then I would most likely model the chainmail :slight_smile: .

#34

Yep Braveheart is bobbins as a history lesson. Read up on the historical evidence. It’s a far more interesting story.
Those spears in Shiltron formations were at the battle of Falkirk in 1298, well before the battle of Bannockburn in 1314. Edward broke them up with his Welsh bowmen before sending in his cavalry to finish the job. Interesting fact is the Master of the Templars in England was killed at Falkirk too. Impaled on the spears of the Scots.
Edward is a fascinating character. A very accomplished warrior and king. A ruthless man in a ruthless time. Most of the best castles in Britain were built during his reign, influenced by the fortifications he had seen while crusading in the Holy Land. His wife Eleanor was a formidable woman too and by all accounts they were truely in love. When she died Edward had stone crosses built in her memory down part of the east of England. One of them was at Charring in London which is why it is still called Charring Cross.
Have a look at Angus McBride’s Paintings. He did a wonderful pic of Bannockburn. Hard to find him on the web though. Look for the Osprey series of illustrated military history books.

red

#35

Lol, yeah your right about the spears redbranch:smiley: , what I should of said was the first time they used them effectively was at Bannockburn.

Also I have always thought of Edward the first as an fascinating character, the fact that he was fighting wars on all fronts in Scotland Wales and France shows what kind of a man he was. Another thing which fascinates me about him is that he knew Robert the Bruce and Roberts father personally. An example of this can be found if you search Google Books and type in “Letters of the Kings of England Robert the Bruce” and it should be the first book the pops up, where he sends a letter to Robert the Bruce asking him not to rebel. If you continue reading down that book it shows the difference in character that Edward II had to his father, Edward II being more human in a way… there’s one letter which he sends to his son, asking him(if we remove all the formalities) to come home because he is missing him and he worried for his sake. Poor Edward you cant help but feel sorry for him.

#36

Thanks Red Squirrel I will check that out.

The model is looking great btw.

red

#37

Wow your scene is really fantastic, but only one screen doesn’t deserve your work. could we have a few more?

I"m also impressed by you concept sketch.

You are really gifted! how lucky you are :slight_smile:

I hope we will not wait so long as before for the next udpdate.

5 stars for you :slight_smile:

#38

I had this exact same idea after watching that documentary a few months ago but decided it was outwith my current skill level!!

Your model looks great but the poses of the riders looks a bit out of place to me…Robert the Bruce does not look like he has really swung the axe and de Bohun does not look like he is mid-charge either.

If anything I would say the Bruce needs to have rotated the shoulders more to look like he has truly swung the axe (in the way that the story tells us he did).

As for de Bohun, I have some pictures taken at a jousting tournament a few years ago and the knights seem to be more hunched forward and braced for the hit. I can send you a few if you want them.

#39

Your model looks great but the poses of the riders looks a bit out of place to me…Robert the Bruce does not look like he has really swung the axe and de Bohun does not look like he is mid-charge either.

Yes, I definitely agree with your statement but I know a few tricks to make it appear as if the axe has been swung, maybe a bit of blur and I still have to add a little more to the image, like dirt being kicked up and maybe a bit of dust. Its also amazing how a bit of composition will help as you can see from the images below.

[left]Although you cant really tell that he is leaning into the blow in the previous image, the image below does show a moderate lean. There is a reason for it being moderate and not over exaggerated, knights gear at the time consisted of a padded coat and on top of that was chain mail then they put on a coat of plates to protect their chest and vital organs from lance blows and all of this gear would of restricted movement. Thanks for the crits xraymtb :).[/left]
[left] [/left]

[left]Cheers dagann :smiley: [/left]
[left]Here’s four different views of the same image I’ve given him a bit more a beard, although it looks a bit solid right now. Anyway still working on Robert and the horse. [/left]

[left][/left]

#40

this is really a great work ! cant wait to see the updates.

the only critic i will made, is the right arm of the left man.
it will be more powerfull with a pose like in the painting.

:buttrock:

#41

Just great! :thumbsup:

#42

Red squirell, i really like the top left picture.
It brings us into the middle the action.

Could we see the de Bohun helmet in a closer view and in a wire view?

Cause i would like to know how you managed to oraganize the wire of the helmet.
Making holes with right angles in a curving surface is not so easy.

#43

Red Squirrell,

Your scene is getting completely awesome!
Very cool composition and the moment… About to hit the helmet with the axe. Very very tense. Hats off to your research.

Looks like you´ve finished modeling the horses. If so, I´ve nothing to suggest, but if you´re still working on them, I have a little observations as a horse lover and ex-amateur equestrian “athlete”, rider or wathever (show jumping) and as an illustrator that loves to sketch horses.

Bryan suggested some good points. Here are my observations (please, don´t get me wrong. These is unpretentious stuff):

  • Legs too rounded. Should be more boney.
  • “Hips” (sorry, I don´t know the name in english. I´m brazilian) are too high. Looks like the ones of a quarter horse or maybe a Thoroughbred. Should look more like that of an Andalusian/Lusitanian horse, or Lipizzan.
  • Body is too lengthy. Should be shorter. A more vertical horse like an Andalusian or Lipizzan. With the neck wider from the side view and inserted a little backwards than it is now.
  • “muzzle” should be a little more boney and thinner.
  • Cheeks on head are to protruding to the sides when seeing it from the front, looking a little inflated, they should be subtler when seeing from the front.
  • Legs are too muscular on the top. Looks like a horse developed for explosion, like a quarter horse. I think it should have musculature developed more in the front
    than in the rear, because it was more to carry weight, like in a Barb or Andalusian.
  • anatomy on joints, on flexing places on the legs are too rounded, shoul be more sharp, angled and boney.

I mention the Andalusian because it, or the Barb, as Bryan mentioned, seems to be the “model” of horse more used in medieval times, at least from all the illustrations, paintings and tapestries (correct me if I´m wrong). Figures of crusaders show horses with very large, powerfull and short necks, convex heads and not too defined muscles. A lot like an andalusian or lipizzan. And their hair is “distinguishably” soft and beautiful.

A good book I have here with good tips on drawing horses (and the author draws very well) is How To Draw Animals, by Jack Hamm.

Only unpretensious observations, as I´ve said, because your scene is… no words to say.
Awesome.

Cheers.

#44

Degann sorry for not getting back sooner, here is the close up of the wire

Well I bought two books recently “English Medieval Knight 1300-1400”(Osprey publishing) and John Barbour’s “The Bruce”. Just to make sure that I hadn’t got anything wrong. The medieval knight 1300-1400 was a complete waste of money, really I got more information from the internet and looking at images of knights effigies than I got form that book. But John Barbour’s “The Bruce”, which is actually a really long poem(although I got the translated one which isn’t) written in about the 1370 was brilliant, and to be honest after reading that, Braveheart is a huge insult so much of an insult that I put the DVD in the bin. In the book the accounts of the time are for the most part historically accurate and I was interested to see that William Wallace was not even mentioned although the book does start of a few years after his death. I would liken this book to one of those cult Japanese Samurai films, you know the ones similar to “Kill Bill” with arms being chopped off and heads being cut off all very gory. But Barbour does glorify and demonize both the English and Scottish knights which is good that although it is written form the Scots point of view he is not afraid to write that they too did evil things in those times.

Anyway the main reason for getting the book was for this image and there it clearly states that Henry de Bohun was a real character and not only that but he was the cousin to Humphrey de Bohun. It also gives clear facts like when this happened Robert the Bruce wore on his basnet a hard leather hat and on top of that he had a crown, and he was on a small grey nimble horse. Not only that they charged each other and he hit de Bohun so hard that not even “hat nor helm could withstand” the blow and the axe went through the skull into the brain. Another description was that it was sunny that day and that from a distance they could see the light reflected brightly of the English helmets. And another important bit of information was given to me at the end of the book was that during one battle the Scots where amazed because of two things they had never seen before, one was cannon and the sound that it made(obviously it didn’t do much damage because he just mentions the sound) and two where crests on the helms, I actually read that a few times because I was not sure what he meant about crests on the helms, but then it clicked he must of meant crest like those seen on jousting helms seeing that this battle happened after Bannockburn it means that Henry de Bohun did not have a crest on his helm.

So here’s it is almost finished if not for a few touch ups I changed the arm position, textured them, the chain mail turned out quite nice especially on King Robert displacement mapping gave the best result and took up allot of memory but its OK for a still. The background is actually a composite of pictures I took at the Bannockburn monument.

lol I have just noticed that I forgot to model the shoulder strap for the shield :shrug:

#45

looking extremely awesome! :smiley: well, to me atleast! :buttrock:

#46

Hey redsquirrel, happy to see you again. :slight_smile:
Thanks for the wire pic.

Your scene is really looking good.

I have many questions.
1/ Wich soft are your working with? The same soft for the make of norm and disp maps?
2/ So if i understood right, you made the mail with a disp map?
3/Is there only displacement map or also normal maps?
4/Are these maps 16 or 32 bits?

5/ By the way, will you make the armies in the back ground? Cause it is as if there were 2 lonely knights fighting in a field. Or may be making a few details suggesting a battle is about to start.

6/Why didn’t you like the osprey book? For my part, i like this book. Of course it’s quite small, but it gives good informations and nice drawings.
Could you give us your internet sources?

#47

Tkanks fktt :slight_smile:

Hi Dagann hope this answers some of you questions.

1/ Wich soft are your working with? The same soft for the make of norm and disp maps?

I partly use blender itself to make a depth/shadow map of some chainmail I modelled. Then I saved that image and opened it up in Gimp I then created a tiled map, then I used a Normal mapping plugin( http://nifelheim.dyndns.org/%7ecocidius/normalmap/ ) to make my normal map form the depth map I’m sure Photoshop has a similar plugin.

2/ So if i understood right, you made the mail with a disp map?
3/Is there only displacement map or also normal maps?

I used every type of map to get that chainmail effect, I originally used normal maps, alpha maps, bump maps but found none of these gave a me what I was looking for, blender had just added a new displacement modifier, so I thought I would give that a try.

It gave me that look I was going for but took away render time and ate away at my memory. So in the end I used displacement maps with the normal map.

4/Are these maps 16 or 32 bits?

For mapping, most maps where in Jpg format for the size although there was some in Tga. I didn’t use any HDR files or any thing like that.

5/ By the way, will you make the armies in the back ground? Cause it is as if there were 2 lonely knights fighting in a field. Or may be making a few details suggesting a battle is about to start.

I did actually, I made the army so that it would sit down in the valley…

it just looks odd to me. I took the background from scenery at the monument at Bannockburn. I thought it would be nice too put something from that landscape in the piece. In all honesty John Barbour described the landscape at the time, as most of it being dense woodland it was know as the the Park… and where the battle took place was in an open field, Robert the Bruce chose this because he blocked the main road to the castle with deep pot holes so it forced the large English army to go through the woods which broke up their lines for when they came out into this open field, the only ones who kept their lines where the English knights in the vanguard. So I know my background is bit off and a bit high there should be lots of trees and lots of men in the background. Maybe I will change it.

6/Why didn’t you like the osprey book? For my part, i like this book. Of course it’s quite small, but it gives good informations and nice drawings.
Could you give us your internet sources?

Well the Osprey book do give a lot of information on how the knights lived and there a few illustration of the knights but if you have a look on the net you’ll find the same information and even more references.

One of the best reference sites I found was this site with pictures of effigies of knights and a time line which shows how armour changed.

[http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm

And There’s the Maciejowski Bible

[url=“http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_images_45.htm”]http://www.medievaltymes.com/courtyard/maciejowski_images_45.htm](http://www.themcs.org/armour/14th%20century%20armour.htm)

Some good references of knights and battles, browse history and click on 25 images

http://www0.kb.nl/manuscripts/browser/index.html

Ow and heres an update of Good King Roberts face, I used it to test out blenders new SSS. The hair is nice too

#48

Thx for all your explanations.

I definitly think you should make mattpainting on the original photo to make it stick to the wood land of the battle.
Didn’t you told us the battle day was shiny :slight_smile:

The websites are great.
Dou you also know same kind of sites but about the XVth century?

The head’s Robert the Bruce is looking excellent.

#49

Well I don’t know if this would suite you if you go to the British libraries On-line gallery, http://www.bl.uk/onlinegallery/ttp/ttpbooks.html and look at the FLEMISH MASTERS IN MINIATURE the “Golf Book” dates around 1400-1600 I think, use the magnifying glass and you will see all sort of things, there an illustration of knights jousting. But other that I haven’t looked at any other centuries other than the 1250-1400.

#50

RedSquirrel you are wowreat … jaja… so let me ask this again, you are using Blender with jahka particles…right>? What render engine are you using>?

Was the composition made with nodes >?

#51

Well let me start off by saying everything was done in blender and with the official 2.44 release so I didn’t use that jahka version for the hair particles, instead I used a hell of allot of curve guides :surprised . Rendering was also done with blenders native renderer and its not hard to achieve a good result with it, the partical count for the hair on his head was 100000 the beard 8000 and the eyebrows 500, the original render size is 800 by 800 and with all the mapping texturing and SSS it only took about me 20min to render. As for the node set-up let just say that If you have a look at other programs tutorials such as Maya you’ll find plenty off them on SSS then all you have to do it try and use some of their techniques in your node set-up.

#52

Well here’s the new composition… well actually it looks more like my original version but it shows off more, I’ve also added the woodland background which was made up of a few pictures I’ve taken. I’ve dulled down the image slightly the colours seemed to bright to me, but it also added effect of making the image look a bit older which is great.