Renderman is dead!! Or at least on its way to die!!


#84

Rendering in passes? You mean like one pass would be the background… next the smoke and particles, then the building (maybe a few for that alone) thenone (or two?) more for the drill robot?

This gives me an idea. I had a scene in C4D that would not render (it took over 24 hours and still not render)… so basically if I render everything sepeartly (background, environment, buildings, other objects) then compisite it later, it should work out nicer? Hmm… well I just learned something new if this is the case.

Wow over 8,000 cores huh?.. well at least it’s warm in the winter… (even with the AC on unless they have like a larger cooling room in the winter)


#85

Dreamcube17, while I’m not a pro nor worked on a feature film, complex scene are best rendered in passes. This allow you to fix things that went wrong without affecting the other. Sometimes different passes uses different renderer - and sometimes even different software. For example a burning alien space ship going down in a jungle.

You might model - and even render the background in Vue.
model and animate the spaceship in Maya/Max/ whatnot.
The burning fire and smoke itself is done in Houdini.

There are the making of the fire/water part in Harry and Avatar (the bender one) floating on the internet where the uses GPU based renderer - because GPU are totally fast and good at this.

So yes, render in passes, specially complex scene. Watch also the making of latest termiinator salvation. I think there is a part that teaches about render passes.

the reason why i love renting dvd, instead of going to cinema, among other reason - is the bonus and the making part of it. i can watch it, pause, repeat, and watch the whole thing again and again.


#86

Yes, you can break the objects in your shot up into separate passes and then composite them together later. This also helps when you are adjusting the lighting on one object or set of objects and need to re-render it as you work, without re-rendering the entire scene. Also keep in mind that you could have 3 characters standing together, and each one is lit by a completely separate (and thus separately tweakable) set of lights, all of which is rendered separately and composited together later.

But it can go even further than that. For a single element, you may want to render the occlusion, color pass, reflections, refractions, fog, etc. separately, and then adjust their relative intensities in the composite. It is a lot faster to turn down the intensity of a reflection 10% in comp than to re-render the reflection layer with the materials set to be 10% less reflective. And if you want to animate a property like reflection, it is a often whole lot easier to animate it in a composite then in re-rendering (say, if you show a character’s reflection in a window, and then fade that reflection down as you rack focus to view what the character is viewing on the other side of the window).

The faster you can render, the more iterations you can make to tweak it.

Cheers,
Michael


#87

Those are layers, not passes. Layers is when you render a character and background separately. Passes is when you break down character into reflection, diffuse, specular etc.


#88

And what he’s saying is basically a “beauty” pass. You’re thinking about the maya terminology. Really you can call them whatever you like, but ultimately you are rendering your shot in parts or passes.


#89

That distinction is absolutely arbitrary and not in place in a lot of shops.
In some softwares or shops they will make a distinction between layers and passes the way you do, in some others everything is called a pass and you just specify of what type.

Most of the time a pass is anything that will generate a separate image output (or a separate layer/channel in a multilayer format like exr), regardless of whether it contains an AOV/channel of one or more shaders, or just a partial of the scene assets.

If anything layer as a word tends to be reserved for other things mostly anywhere I worked, and it implies some level of sequential/stack ordering in its use.


#90

It’s funny, I had a similar “discussion” (more of an argument, actually…!) with a fellow on another board, recently, about passes and their usefulness. It really comes down to what works for you and your shop. In the vast majority of cases passes are an absolute necessity and a no-brainer. But there are times when they can actually decrease efficiency rather than increase it. Case in point, we just finished a 60+ shot fly-through for a client, 15 mins of footage in total. We’re a small shop (2 of us max at any one time, often just me) and I can tell you that there’s no way in hell we were going to render 4,5 or 6 or more passes x 60+ to achieve each shot. The reality was that our client was being sent stills along each path and signed those stills off “as-is”. So when they did sign one off, that was that and we sent the full shot to the farm. We knew that it would not only be possible but actually desirable to get these shots looking spot-on out of the box in the beauty pass and not have to construct 60+ comp scripts and render 6 or so passes. We spent many weeks (actually months, over time) refining and perfecting everything in 3d for the base renders. The disk space savings alone were worthwhile. In our case, it was very much a better option not to use passes. Of course we did end up using many subset render passes (fixed objects, new objects etc.) but that’s par for the course. And the usual post work (CC etc.).

Passes are all about efficiency and flexibility. When you don’t need the flexibility (because you’re doing it all in the base render and it makes sense to do things this way) all that’s left is efficiency. I think a lot of really small shops and one-man-bands use passes simply because they “ought to” without really sitting down and working out if they will actually be of any real benefit. In our case they would have slowed our production down to a grinding halt and cost an enormous amount in storage costs. Instead, we reinvested that time into R&D and reinvested the cost into the renderfarm, allowing us to hit a higher quality and send more shots out than originally planned for, so it worked very well. But we were in the very fortunate position of having enough time to really nail the shots in the beauty pass down to every last detail. It really just comes down to what works for you, on a particular project and probably even on a particular shot. Shot 001 might warrant passes, 002 might not. But when you’re in a large shop with a very streamlined and strict pipeline, you’re probably going to find that it’s either “use em every time” or “don’t”.

There’s also the crucial element of “creativity”. We weren’t afforded much of that for this job because every last detail was specified by the architects, so there was relatively little messing around finding nice tones, lighting arrangements etc. It was a case of “Here are the drawings, the lighting design, the furniture spec and layout - off you go”. When you’ve got the opportunity to play around with things like this passes can be fantastic. In the same way that you might use something like Magic Bullet to find a few options for general looks for a mood board.

Anyway that was a little off-topic in a way, but just thought I’d put it out there.

And as Jaco said (hi mate, by the way!), pass/layer… all the same thing really. Just terminology. I think most people say “passes” these days and know what you mean. When you say “layers” that does start to imply certain things. Passes is a nice, flexible, open term.


#91

I saw this photo the other day, from making E.T., where there were a bunch of guys standing around a small piece of land, with little trees on it, a spaceship being lowered on a rig, smoke blowing into the scene, and 35mm camera just shooting it.


#92

I think renderman is far from dead. I can combine direct, indirect illumination with 3D motion blur, DOF, SSS, glossy reflections and 32bit displacements and get reliant results with acceptable render times. I am no render expert and use renderman for maya and build all my shaders with standard maya nodes. I know many will say RfM is limited you need studio and RSL bla, bla but RfM will get you very far as is and the price is acceptable IMHO. And I love the fact that I rarely need passes as the render times just allow me to work more “in camera”.


#93

I agree with this. Old production habits are hard to kill sometimes.


#94

Renderman is not made by artists its made by computer science people. And i think it should stay that way, artsy people should learn technical stuff like some programming if they want to work with advanced animation or just stay away from it.


#95

are you completely nuts? That is exactly what not should be done!
WTF!! I don’t believe it…
the amount of time that is needed to get an interface right is so little
compared to making the actually renderer ( and I got that from a pro Developer… but its anyway a no brainer). the problem is that most of the
time the developer is building the interface, or is involved in it…
Which is the dummest thing you can ever do. Which happened to Prman as well…obviously


#96

I don’t know what pro developer you heard it from, but in some cases getting a good interface is actually an extremely expensive process compared to the first iteration of the underlying mechanics. That stands true for most of the HI side of things for any complex piece of software, and particularly true for a GUI.

That said, in PRMan it’s not a case of interface or not. The GUI to a rendering engine is practically non-existent. When people complain about PRMan being hard to use they complain about the amount of work-arounds or interim steps necessary to get REYES to do raytracing tricks.
It has little to nothing to do with the interface (whether you were talking about ri or a GUI it doesn’t need or have I don’t know).

Mind, I consider the idea that everybody should be a programmer to use a rendering engine as a lighting artist ridiculous, as you seem to do, but the whole interface spiel makes hardly any sense.


#97

Even if the GUI is on an open source program, it’s not an easy process. Look at Blender and how it’s GUI changed over the years. Aqsis has a simple GUI app, I can tell you from my own private work with it, that the amount of work for “simple” GUI’s is quite a bit. Commercial apps I imagine would be even harder to develop.

To truly work with Renderman you need to WANT to learn it and enjoy it, then and only then do you “get it”. Even then it takes years to really understand and do the tricks, shortcuts, processes and whatnot to get the render right. Even the task of dealing with AOV is a hassle, all your shaders need to be programmed to accommodate that, otherwise you get ugly artifacts. Or point clouds for that matter. This is why RiSpec was designed in such a way, so that the user can dictate everything and expand if they wanted to. While raytracing is not as easy to do in RSL as other render engines, it’s not that hard, just need to know your scene, that goes for any render engine really. Nobody likes spending a horrendous amount of time doing anything, even waiting for a render, so really I think people dont remember how long renders took back in the mid 90’s. It really isnt that bad now. However even I do the same, it needs to be more efficient, needs to be easy to work with, easy to understand and deliver results in a timely manner (yesterday???) so as a Renderman user I can identify with both sides of the argument.

Lighting artists do not need to be a RSL wizard to work with lighting, they need to know lighting. While it would help them to understand and even be able to program RSL , they are not required to know it like a shader writer. They need to understand lighting models, color, form, conditions of environment, above all else, the ability to evoke emotion. While the modeling, animation, texturing and even shader writing, are all important steps and in some cases harder to master than others, the lighting is as important as animation as it sets the tone of the shot. Everything we see is either an emission of light and reflecting light, in a variety of ways, so in CG this is the step where emotion is set, it emphasizes the modeling, the animation, the texturing and so on, this step does not require a B. in Comp Sci. It requires an eye for lighting.


#98

Ok so Im ridiculous sure, Im saying it never hurts to know some programming while working with TD work. And i DO know some lighting artists that use a good amount of scripting.


#99

Well its going to be interesting when The Foundry some day releases Katana.
It might give Arnold some momentum, its orinally SPI:s product anyway.


#100

thats not what you said and you know it :stuck_out_tongue:


#101

That’s the same attitude symbian developers and Nokia were relying on for the last decade.


#102

Renderman is not made by artists its made by computer science people. And i think it should stay that way, artsy people should learn technical stuff like some programming if they want to work with advanced animation or just stay away from it.

Errrr, show me a renderer written by artists then??


#103

This developer didn’t happen to be involved in the mess that is Mental Ray for Maya did they?

Making an interface which is innovative and also powerful is very difficult. It is also a never ending process as you need to add new renderer features and constantly refine the workflow.

It has only been the last few years that Pixar has seriously been addressing their interface to RenderMan with RenderMan for Maya / RenderMan Studio and they still haven’t got it quite right.

Solid Angle’s approach is very interesting - giving source code access to the Arnold exporters - but still supporting them.

And then there is Houdini - it’s strongest feature is their powerful interface to Renderman.

Simon