recognize human modelling

#781

Oh man… it’s really up to you how simple you want to go. My opinion is still that it’s better to get a good model, like an untextured sitting nude (with the current ref) and to make a simple presentation with four different views. Having then a great base to go on when ever you feel like. I’m writing this again because clothing will be a completely new story, an other very difficult task, and because of seeing this new hand pose, like when soldiers stand at attention - making me sad somehow. “arm2” is better of course, needing now only to relax those little fingers. Look for references, or take a bottle my friend, grab it with your left hand and work.

The left foot will be (beside the right knee and the head) your principal actor on your picture. If you ask me what i think about it, i’d say, cute little toes, too thin actually, and a shapeless ankle. A human model is looking real by it’s perfectly realistic proportions (which you’ve already got), and then (!!) by it’s details, by the contrast between subtle shapes and little sharp details, especially on hands and feet.

:beer: Happy New Year! And keep up the nice work!

#782

pose
pose all

the hand and foot details is destroyed. don’t know what happen but it should be pressing some button , not sculp problem because all fingers and toes details are destroyed. won’t be so coincidence and destroyed like symmetry . luckily, i use some of the older version and still can recover the problem . the arm i import the old stand pose one and pose it again. spend me many times there.

of course i will finish the nude one first. but after this still need clothing .it is not what i want to do. just necessary because i made the texture, hair , all are colored so need the clothing to cover the body.

thanks for suggestion:wavey:

#783

Not going to go over all of it, but just one thing I noticed: clavicle in life takes an s-curve: anterior curve medially and posterior curve laterally. Check out this top view: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Gray200.png

#784

Ok, i understand the reasons for the clothings. What i don’t understand is the ‘button destroys hand and feet details’. Save your work every hour as different files while working, and delete the not needed versions at the end of the day after making sure that the left files aren’t corrupt and contain all parts needed. And save the daily updates on an external HD.

Some input concerning the foot:

#785

pose

change the lighting for the foot. don’t have volume in the last rendering
i try to make it but not certain about the PO. too many lines . i need some more explanation . i think i can’t use a stand foot as reference
at the back of the heel, the crease line i made it on texture so i don’t want to overlap that part.

to zokana
'button destroys hand and feet details’
i don’t know exactly the reason, i think it may be due to pressing some wrong button in zbrush and smooth the fingers and toes at the same time.

to AlexanderL
thx for input , that part is not s-shape enough, thx for point it out

thanks for suggestions and PO
cya:arteest:

#786

To be modest, i gave you a great PO the last time. :smiley: Using it together with the photo reference, and taking maybe 1-2 other photos should do it as guide. There were “too many lines” because there are many shapes on a foot, and they aren’t pecise lines to avoid that you simply follow them, instead of looking at photo refs. :stuck_out_tongue:

The shape right in front of the ankle on the Erika photo ref is somewhat missing on your model, and the top of the foot doesn’t show the typical arch (as shown on the PO). The reason for the arch issue is more the shape right behind the toes - there’s too much volume, especially the tendon of the fourth toe (the ‘ring toe’) is too high, making that arch looking straight. A last crit concerns the little toe - it looks still a bit straight (the ‘hammer-look’ missing a bit[also on the fourth toe btw], and the outside of the little toe in top view should be much curvier). The position of the ankle is good now and also the shape of the heel is nicely improved. Maybe the shape of the sole a bit straight at its mid section.(could be more an arch there)

The lighting is better indeed to see the shapes.

What’s next after having done the foot?(Other refinements, skin texture adjustments or clothing?)

#787

pose

the PO sure is great, just the overlapping of the line make me a bit uncertain
the bone shape/tendon of the toes at instep. i am not sure if it is relaxed. i can’t see that
much on a relax foot or i made too strong.

i think after the foot will need to have a look on the textured version. but actually i don’t want to edit the texture. it is the most annoying thing for me especially the seam part .so hope everything is fine. then it is clothes

thank you for suggestions

#788

The foot is coming nicely! Much better now! :thumbsup:

Main issue is still the arch at the top of the foot. Plus toe shapes and a somewhat shapeless heel.

And no complaints this time about PO quality! :wink: You shouldn’t follow them anyway without taking a close look at reality.

I have some doubts about not changing the texture, but let’s see first how it looks like…

(would be nice to see also a top view of the foot the next time…)

Keep it up!

#789

pose

lol your PO is always great , i will say i can’t do it the same way

about the crease, i can’t render the colored texture atm, but i can find some old rendered u saw b4. what i mean about don’t want to do the texture. it mean personally dislike to look back, but if it is still finally necessary , i don’t have a choice , still need to work on it. god bless !! when u know i get 4 file for 4 parts of the body(head, body , leg, arm) , each of them 4096x4096 and i need to open the files 1by1 , when rendering them, i need to export 3,4 files(overall color(white , and less saturate), color,specular , reflection, bump) for the SSS shader. how annoying it is

stand pose color
part of the texture

#790

There’s a little dent right on top of the arch of the foot, the foot otherwise okay - not the breathtakingly detailed extremity but the overall look good.

I don’t fully get your described texture procedure - it looks like needing a severe file administration.

Your texture details look impressive on the texture itself, while the strong lighting on your render is washing them out, the skin looks over-lit. My experience is that skin textures have to be brighter and less saturated than your painting, not needing tons of light to get the familiar brightness of skin on renders.

One should use the previously described(1) ‘reflected-light metering’ by using a ‘grey card’, as you do it in professional photography sometimes. In 3d you can simply set the colour of your object to 50% black and reflections to 0%. Then you set up your lighting to get the brightest area of your object precisely 50% black. Now you have a correct lighting at least, not overexposing the object.(2) Then you apply the skin texture (without reflections first), and you pryingly click ‘render’. Is the skin too dark, you need to get it brighter, or the other way. Hope it’s understandable.

1: on my carefully done illustration of your lighting situation, which you kindly called “attractive”, but hardly usable :stuck_out_tongue:
2: instead of using grey you can do it of course by comparing the texture with the render, but the method with grey is more precise. You can use also a grey sphere btw, perhaps easier to determine the brightest area.

#791

i want to ask about the little dent,
do u mean the bottom arch, which is called arch of the foot when i google or the top of the or the arch at the instep.
i am confused because both of them are arch, though u said the top , but it can refer to the bottom arch of the foot at its highest position point
sorry for my poor english

about my texture procedure, because i want to make the details more clear especially the hand and foot, so i use a large texture, which consist of 4 parts(each 4096^2) this combine together form a large 8192 texture. it is not physically combine them , but input 4 4096 texture with different UV position. at the head , arm ,leg,torso.this is only 1 map(8192 size) while SSS get many set of map need to set(overall, epidermal, subdermal specualr bump etc). so there are many map need to input to them and each of the map need 4 bitmap. this is what i mean .

this methond is strange anyway. i think it myself because seems photoshop not able to handle a large 8192 map alone, so i divide to 4 of them and make 3dsmax to input them back to a four 4096 map . this is more memory efficient. but not user friendly

#792

Ok, here a last PO concerning the foot, showing most suggestions for the third time actually:

I didn’t give you more input before because of some resignation from my side - generally i can see some ignorance of many suggestions, without communicating the reason for it. If you’re wishing my help then i’d like to see at least your thoughts about a mentioned problem. Toe shapes are still the same, the outer foot shape behind the little toe doesn’t like to happen, creases at the heel are lost in silence, no top view of the foot, my explonation about brightness/saturation of the skin texture not even mentioned - a straightforward communication is missing lately. Seeing you not following a suggestion is absolutely ok with me, when having an explonation, or when seeing that you’re trying but not fully reaching something.

Thanks for the explonation of the texture issue. Your textures are more than large enough. Perhaps you could try to do a full render in the final size with smaller textures, to see whether that high resolution is needed or not.

#793

ok seems we have the same misunderstanding again

 i do not ignore your suggestion, this is for 100% sure. 
 i try every move u say, that's y i asked abut the dent even just 1 single sentence out of the whole paragraph. and i try 2 hours myself and want to know what exactly u mean before asking. sometime a PO or a sentence may not clearly expressed itself.  i understand this so i usually spend time to figure it out. PO many time just say strange shape (only verbal suggestion) so what does it mean , i find it myself . update it next time , problem still here , try again. like the plain shape u mentioned on the thigh. u always see a plain shape in many update. but somehow it does not mean i ignore what u said. and finally lighitng problem.the toe shape now is another problem . i feel the toe is quite thick, so i try to make a shape but not changing so much the volume. that's y it seems not change at all.
 
 about the texture u mentioned, i even not try to render the model with texture at the moment because i only spent time on figure out 1 sentence. as long as i do not test the render , and i am only concentrate at the model, not the texture . so i do not comment that part at the moment.   
 
 what i posted about the texture is the work before. and i also mentioned in the past about that texture.[(  the last upadte about texture](http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=43&t=787551&page=46&pp=15) @684)it is not the exactly one i used, this is the source only. i use this source to tune about different set of maps, like the overall color, color map, specular map etc. the final output u can see on the 1st page about the head. the stand pose u also see before , but what i want to say is about the crease line at the back of the foot . u can see they are there. i posted them in reply for the PO u said if i do not edit the texture , how can i make that crease line.i posted it because the texture is already done and the crease line is there. the material is also finished .so it is hard to change so many thing at this moment . 
 
 what i said about the crease line before, i worry if the modeling crease line and the texture overlap, this make a more unrealistic result . do u think i need to make the crease line with modelling?  
 
 i am sorry about your resign , u will find a better job.good luck
#794

Now come down a bit! It’s basically not my “job” to help you, or to help anyone online! It’s more a sort of being involved out of interest in creativity and in mentalities all over the world. And i said that if you’re wishing my continuous help, then i wish to have a clear communication, which contains also to tell when you don’t agree with something.

Take it as a sign… Perhaps it’s your modeling sometimes, your liking of geometrical shapes, which might be ok at stylised modeling - but you need to break it through when going for realistic organic shapes. I warmly recommend especially for you to take drawing classes after having finished this piece, because there’s some essential experience missing in looking at your subject, in the different aspects of studying an organic shape. You have the will and the energy to learn. And your love for precision will certainly help you at many kind of artistic work, but you must also learn how to handle it, how to fight against it, if needed.

Concerning the creases around the foot i really can’t predict anything before you don’t show the textured result.

And i was asking for a top view of the foot because of remembering quite a wierd shape at the outside of the right shin you’ve made to get the suggested shape in the final viewing angle.

Cheers
z

#795

pose
pose color
top
hand

sorry my slow progress

change the texture at the toe i think it is too red b4, the original source of the texture is not as good as the finger. i am sad that can’t show the hand on the final view while i am satisfied about the texture. it requires more workload to rig the fingers because the hand is not planned to grab smthing at first.

the shape u mentioned on the side of the little toe. i change the lighting for that part. i understand what u mean . but i think u can have a look on the top view

the crease , i think i need to add them on modeling, but i am not sure should i rotate the foot more. the texture use on that part is a stand foot pose, which don’t have a strong crease on the side of the heel much. it is hard to use texture to make it .

i respect every move u say because i understand it is not your job for helping me .
i agree i need to take some art lesson after this work. but it is not easy , especially for some human anatomy in Hong Kong. may be unless a degree course in art.
usually are some basic drawing lesson without any organic, drawing a pencil box, some fruits(fruits is organic but i think it is not what u mean). they may be teaching u using different tools, oil painting, pencil etc. i know they are art and they are important .but i think i can’t get back much to CG, i did it before for 2 years. i know 2 years is far not enough to become expert, but another 10 years still won’t learn anatomy.

thanks for suggestions

#796

You did certainly learn a lot at this project. I have your first sketch still in mind… :wink: You know now how to compare forms, and how much attention subtle shapes afford sometimes. What you need more is experience in assimilating shapes in relation to each other very quickly and confidently. I think that’s the essence of advanced drawing.

You can practice also for yourself by taking your paper block under the arm and going to the zoo or sitting down on a park bench and quickly sketching what you see. It doesn’t need more than self-initiative and patience with yourself. You do it at least two times a week for 2-3 hours and the last Sunday of the month you always go to draw your favourite chimpanzee to see what progress you’ve made.

You really don’t need to learn much anatomy - it’s more a scary tale people like to tell each other to show how tough they are, or to get students for their courses. The needed knowledge will come together with the interest. Far more important is a positive attitude to develop interest, plus some paper. The major advantage of a course is that people without much self-initiative are forced to practice regularly, the initiative coming form others. Plus the feedback of course. But self-made artists can be as good as people with many years spent in art schools, or even far better. It’s really about interest and dedication and the technical part you learn by doing and by studying masterpieces carefully.

The textured version looks very good. The foot texture is washed out now imo, the red around the sole isn’t saturated enough(at least with this lighting) and the skin is getting there partially also somewhat brighter in reality (study high res photos while converting them to B&W to better see the brightness values of the skin)
I don’t fully understand your problems with those creases. Don’t you use a texture painting appl like Bodypaint? Or you could simply add some lines in PS and see, adjust, and see, adjust… What’s so difficult with that? And yes, a little ZBrush magic would be nice there.

“the hand is not planned to grab smthing at first” :smiley: Come on! Which body parts were planned then to be movable?
Her left hand is looking stiff. At least the thumb should be posed a bit. The lower thumb area is the weakest part now of the model, not enough details at the curve between thumb and index. And: The lower thumb outline could get slightly pushed in a bit near the wrist > that last little curve next to the wrist is too strong imo.(it could get more straightened)

The foot became quite nice actually - after all that fight with ianlai… Also the toes are nice and the slight inward bending of the foot convincing, even in top view. Only the “dent” on top of the foot is still there (as marked precisely on my last PO) - it’s exactly the area where the instep starts to arch slightly and subtly.

cheers
z

#797

pose
pose color

hope i can get the idea about the dent at instep .

the crease line i tried to use zbrush but even i raise the polygon to 7 million still not enough to make a smooth crease, so i give up and using texture again
actually the difficulties i mentioned is about the original source photo which is a stand pose. but i did not think about add this myself because i only think about using photo as a source. and thinks for reminding me .

the problem of the hand i tried , but even more unnatural , so i think i can’t get the idea u mentioned.

i will try to paint more after this project. but hard to pay every week to the zoo. seems only get 1 zoo and it is expensive in Hong Kong. properly attain some amateur classes to force myself to draw.

thanks for suggestions

#798

The overall appearance of the body is very good, just the hand is lowering a bit the good impression - it’s looking hidden there and obviously without rigging, but hey, it’s your work. I understand all your reasons for having it like this, but i’m afraid that the viewer won’t. However, i won’t bother you with the issue anymore, so here a PO showing some corrections also on the hand: (compare the PO over the original)

The zoo has been just one idea, remembering the time we’ve spent there as students. It’s expensive also over here, but you can by season tickets.

Cheers, my friend! :beer:
z

#799

wanna ask about the crease
there is crease on the texture , the orientation which is stand pose.
so the direction is more perpendicular to the foot. should i ignore the texture/ remove them and add the crease line?

about zoo
how can u draw a moving object and always changing its pose?
i think i won’t be able to do it , or i will use photo

#800

Those creases appear more at this pose of the foot because the skin is getting somewhat pressed together. Yeah, i’d change the texture. (btw: note also that the creases aren’t that low around the heel)

Not all animals are running around all the time in a zoo! :smiley: As a teenager i even made a sculpture of a wolf lying on his back, and an iguana was posing for me for over four hours…