R21 in one month...we'll know


#584

there:

PS: you can “lock it” i think if there is no way to delete it.


#585

“For nothing is evil in the beginning.”

JRR Tolkien


#586

I thought tonight, i saw such tech - Delaunay Cap Skinning - in Navié Xtrudy


#587

Here is a bit more info for everyone to chew over, just waiting to speak to Maxon UK to find out more. Lots of unanswered questions.

On July 30th, Maxon announced at Siggraph that Cinema 4D R21 will ship in early September and that MSAs to new customers are discontinued and replaced with a new subscription option. As an R20 MSA customer, you can get Cinema 4D R21 when it ships in 4 ways:
1 – Renew your MSA by August 31st: Ask me for a quote.
This will get you a perpetual licence of Cinema 4D R21 when released. You will also get 12 months of access to any other upgrades and Cineversity access too. Please note that this will be the last chance to renew your MSA. During your active MSA period, you can also look to move to subscription if you wish, with special deals for active MSA customers to convert.

2 – Upgrade from R20 Perpetual to Cinema 4D R21 Subscription. Available from R21 shipment. Expected Cost: £441.50 ex VAT.
Whilst cheaper than MSA, this option will mean that you’re on a subscription licence and your R20 perpetual licence has been upgraded and no longer valid. Subscription licences work during the licenced period, but if your subscription ends and you don’t renew, your software will no longer work.

3 – Upgrade from R20 Perpetual to Cinema 4D R21 Perpetual. Available from R21 shipment - Expected Cost: £799 ex VAT to £999 ex VAT depending on whether static or floating respectively.
This is more expensive than renewing your MSA, but can be done after August 31st. It’s more expensive than a subscription licence, but perpetuals will continue to work provided software and hardware is compatible.

4 – Buy a Subscription of Cinema 4D R21 . Available from R21 shipment. Expected Cost: from £551.88 ex VAT per year or £79.99 per month.
This keeps your Cinema 4D R20 as an active perpetual licence which you can use continually. Your subscription licence works whilst your subscription is active.


#588

What I would like to know is how do the prices compare if you are on prime? Why does subscription make your existing license null and void when you are paying for something new? What features are being held back for release over the course of the year? A bit more info and honesty would go a long way.


#589

The more I think about it, the more it seems to me that this “rent-only show” is very risky for MAXON. In a market environment in which there is a lot of big and good competition MAXON is not able to force a rental model. At least that can go wrong. Looking at the manufacturer and quasi-monopolist who introduced this “rent or leave” model in the graphics industry: Would it not be great for him to have a powerful argument why the so-called “cloud” is a little more expensive? Why not supplement the portfolio with 3D software. Interface to AE is already there. Interface to the management too. And maybe even an interface to Photoshop tinker (well, the program will be a bit puffed up, but heck). The Adobe renters will eat it. The creators of the “Creative Cloud idea” would have enough money and power to keep MAXON alive and provide some market penetration. They have already proven in other areas. 10$ a month of Millions better than 60$ a month of thousands. OK - Cinema would then stagnate, like all the other products you can rent there. Or it would get lousy new functions (Professional 3D for the iPad & CellPhone | Help system? What for? There is a Adobe Community … | Tons of Cloud-Storage | and the like). The longer I think about it - all this is no coincidence. The collaboration of MAXON and Adobe (AE), the portfolio of Adobe and not least the new CEO.
In my view, it is a matter of time until it´s “Adobe Cinema 4D - Rent it or leave it”.


#590

This option seems absurd. Why would anyone give up their perpetual license that they paid thousands for to save a few hundred. This is how Maxon treats its loyal customers.


#591

I just wish the victim mentality that has been created by this shift in licensing would fade off. At least they are offering some options to ease the pain of shifting over to subs.

Subs are the way of the future whether we like it or not.

I even see it in ios apps to control my smart tv! Want to mirror your iphone to your lg smart tv? Download this FREE app…but wait, to actually use it, you have to have a SUBSCRIPTION.

Do I like it? Not particularly. It’s just the way things are. So I either decide it’s worth it, or I move on.

And let’s face it, C4D is not a hobby app. At its pricepoint, that should be obvious. Lots of hobbiests use it, but it is an app intended for production of paid work.

I have paid the MSA every year since it was introduced…the sub is about the same price. It’s just a shift of mentality.

I get it…we won’t have our perpetual…but if you’ve been renewing every year anyway, then what’s the gripe?

If you decide to jump off the train, now you have the opportunity to do that. You don’t HAVE to upgrade or do the sub or anything. Want temporary access to do some work or update something? Pay one month. Yes that price is higher…but it is around $95 USD. If you are doing edits to some existing work and not charging your client at least $200 anyway…you’re doing something wrong. Just build that cost into doing the work. For hobbiests…yeah, this sucks. In that case, I do think Blender might be a better option.

This will rub some people the wrong way, and that is not my intention. I’ve been on both sides of the fence since the announcement, and have finally settled with the idea and will just move forward when it feels right to me. I hope the initial pain and reactions to this announcement will shift into something more productive soon.


#592

So with a 2 year MSA a yearly upgrade (with tax) cost me £594 per year last year, with Maxon’s new upgrade pricing to go to the next version now costs £958. That’s an increase of 61%! I didn’t realise that was the current rate of inflation in Germany or the UK (pre-Brexit).


#593

All Maxon would have to do to make most people happy is to offer a rent-to-own option, like many other companies do.

For new users, after paying so many months, you earn a perpetual license.

Existing perpetual owners, keep the latest version they are subbed for.

If Maxon offered this, I would sign up for a subscription immediately. We all want the peace of mind that our files will be accessible and will not be held hostage.

I’m not against subscriptions, just the way they are implemented in this case.


#594

It’s not the end of the world but there is obviously some bulldozing of shit going on. The only winners are new customers. Studio licenses will be worthless unless they offer a few years of free subscription which I doubt will happen and Prime users will have to pay 3 x as much or go somewhere else. I think the best thing to do is just pay the MSA and wait and see what happens. We have just paid for 3 MSA’s for an upgrade that has very little benefits for us but that’s the price you pay for staying up to date, that has always been the case, sometimes you get lucky sometimes you don’t. It’s a mad system where you pay in advance for features you don’t know about or even need.


#595

How does subs is the way of the future ? apps with subs: Autodesk, Modo, Adobe, Nuke, Zbrush.

Wouldn’t INDIE / Free / really cheap versions be the way of the future if software indies / free are: Houdini, Modo, 3dsMax, Maya, Unreal, Unity, Mari, Nuke Non-commercial, Zbrush Core, Davinci Resolve, Blender.

Why do you think subs is the future , using a tv remote app as an example, is beyond me.

Modo Perpetual: Stay current with the latest technology and keep your skillset relevant. You’ll get every update and new release while your maintenance remains valid, as soon as it’s available.

Cinema: Nope, no update for you.

“At least they are offering some options to ease the pain of shifting over to subs” That simply isnt true. As it is now, is pay 3K every year for a perpetual without updates or cineveristy, or 720 for an annual sub. Thats not an option, they are forcing us to take the subs.


#596

That’s not true, 3K every year was a miscommunication, Greyscale gorilla corrected it. I reckon that if they keep perpetuals, it’s going to be similar to current upgrades without MSA, so around 900€ (vs 720€ for subs and 660€ for MSA).

I hope so anyway.


#597

There are many, many more.

Please don’t misinterpret my post, because largely, I feel the same way as everyone else about subs. I don’t like them. I’m trying to see the good in it and move on.

That’s exactly why I chose that absurd example…to show that more and more developers and software companies are switching to that model. If something as random as an ios tv remote app is doing it…then my point is made.

Yes. That sucks. But I think that was a miscommunication. Anyway, it is further proving my point that subs are going to be the future. I’m not saying that in a positive way either. I’m saying they are going to be the future so either accept it or move on to something else. One option that we never had before is to sit and wait. In the past that would have meant SUBSTANTIALLY higher upgrade price because you skipped a version. Instead, you can wait and jump on the sub when it makes sense for you. Or don’t. Use other software that you feel has more value. Or don’t. These are called OPTIONS.

Currently I’m on the “accept it” train. Because I use C4D for paid work, it makes more sense for me to do that.


#598

…Adobe also offerd - Foreseeable

As we all accept it - Yes

Completely disagree (And even if - I don´t like this mentality)
Licensing means owning a license. It´s not only the one time price to get access.
Renting is a bit like taking a credit on your own work.

Me too. Since was available. And spend a X of that money into PlugIns.
(VRay & further Rende-Engines | VUE XStream | XP | Turbulence FD | PIM | a long ongoing list…)
The gripe is: If I want to change to an other Software, I have to pay Maxon again in evvery case I use earlier work. And that would be nearby every day.
I have Projects, where I deveolped 3D Icon-Libraries which are needed and expanded again and again. I have a manufacturer of mashines, which are always re-aranged and re-rendered. I have a charakter-Libray & Tons of Models.
Sure - I can sub than, but I have to pay for. Yes, I can account that to my client. But, hey, business man, elsewise It´s money that I could keep on my own with Perpetual. Or you think the client cares about Subcription?
I don´t like to invest in PlugIns and AddOns, when I´m dependent to a company, which can do anything they like with future prices and features.
That´s the gripe. Money isn´t. Not the first. Not the Second.

Simpy said. You learned a software. You invested a lot. Time & Money…

Don´t know what kind of thing you are working on.
I´m in the field for more than 30 years with my own business. Loosing my archive and the access to it is essential. I want the freedom to so. Even to decide not longer offering 3D (without paying in every case, I have to open an old file). I want to change the software (without double cost) if I like to.

Even not funny for them - I can understand.

Nobody can hold you.
But in my eyes it´s worth to react against currents you don´t like.
Without revolutions this world wouldn´t be a better place.
As long as there is Perpetual - I will prefer.
No Cent to Adobe since 2012.
And in Case of Maxon: If I can´t own, I have no argument, not using competition.
As said: Price isn´t my main concern. Autodesk isn´that far away. And that´s an other class.
Maybe some other see it the same way.


#599

That is amazing. Honestly. I work with other artists and agencies and if I don’t have access to new versions of Adobe software, I can’t service those clients.


#600

I got the same email. The bit I’m bemused about is this:

1 – Renew your MSA by August 31st: This will get you a perpetual licence of Cinema 4D R21 when released. You will also get 12 months of access to any other upgrades and Cineversity access too. Please note that this will be the last chance to renew your MSA. During your active MSA period, you can also look to move to subscription if you wish, with special deals for active MSA customers to convert.

So if there is an R21.x, MSA owner will get the ‘any other upgrades’? I would like this point clarified, because up until now Srek has said we won’t get new features just bug fixes. Or at least that’s how I interpreted it.


#601

in general i have no problem with subs, as long as they are attractive. adobe cc to me is very attractive, since it’s around half the price of what it was before to stay current if you had the master collection. now if c4d would have made the sub half the price of msa i think that would have been a good deal. to pay the same for renting instead of owning really doesn’t seem appealing, and i really wish they would have chosen another path on this.

that said, i make a living with c4d (and adobe products), 600€ for adobe products and 700€ a year for c4d is nothing compared to what i make with, so i can live with the change. i have no worries that i won’t be able to pay that anymore anytime soon, so for me nothing much changes. probably most people using it professionally see it that way i guess.

in general i agree that it sucks though. unfortunately that doesn’t change anything.


#602

subscribers get eventual mid cycle feature upgrades (not sure if and how many there will be throughout a year), perpetual license owners will get those features too, but only once a year every full release. everyone gets bugfixes, just like it has always been the case. that’s my understanding of it.


#603

I hope so. If Maxon is sticking with ProRender, I hate seeing all the updates Prorender users of other DCC’s get throughout the year from AMD while we have to wait for the next version of Cinema.