R21 in one month...we'll know


#563

VThe more I read both posts here and at the cafe the more I start to feel seriously undervalued as a longtime Studio user. We are the losers here no matter what anyone from MAXON tries to say. I have paid a Studio MSA diligently since they were introduced, it was the value proposition that was best for most people who wanted to keep C4D current. Now I have to pay more in a single cost bill than I did before for an MSA and am locked into a scheme that effectively locks me out of my work if I don’t pay. A Prime user will be able on their MSA which over the years will have been considerably less cost than mine to now have a full Studio C4D and I will get exactly the same for a far greater cost. I see absolutely no upside to this and no offer that might tempt me to bite into this s*** sandwich.
The main gripe I have is that without C4D phoning in it will essentially be bricked. When Modo announced their subscription policy I had to make a choice and I decided I would no longer pay for both C4D and Modo updates. But here’s the important difference. I can still use Modo 10 now. I will seriously look into their sub now as it is far cheaper per year than C4D . If I chose to stop subscribing it doesn’t brick the program I keep it but it no longer has support and updates. C4D only has this if I go nowhere near the sub model, which means the discounts offered are of no interest to me. I want to be able to access my work without a company holding me hostage. It’s a simple as that. And before anyone says well Adobe do that, yes admittedly they do but look at the value I get for my AU$74.99 a month. I get 21 programmes, including Photoshop, Lightroom, Premiere, After Effects, Illustrator that I pretty much use daily. I cannot pay almost 2x that price per month for one program I use occasionally.

Here are the current Adobe CC packages in Aus

Annual Plan Paid Monthly 76.99 a total cost for 12 months is 923.88

Annual Plan One time payment a small discount 72.58 when you divide the 871.07 cost by 12

Monthly no lock in 114.99

Here are the current rest of world pricings for C4D Euro converted to Aus

No Annual Plan paid monthly

C4D Annual Subscription billed annually is 100.61 dollars for a total cost of 1207.32 a price hike of 200.00 or so from my current MSA for a program that is brickable once you no longer pay for it.

Monthly Subscription paid Monthly 171.05 For a whopping 2052.6 (wow just wow) this is twice as much as the MSA and doesn’t even take into account this has no Redshift. Also roughly 100.00 more per month than what I currently pay for Creative Cloud!

Ok so I know I am making these figures up with what I have to go with but as Rick Barrett has said this is basically currency conversion and taxes etc across different areas of the globe which determines price. I am converting the default rest of the world price and am horrified.


#564

Good human folk don’t treat their customers the way Maxon is treating us. It’s really quite outrageous.

They are basically saying:
Bend over and take it.

But I’m seeing the sunshine here. The money I save in just one year–by moving on–is equivalent to a 2080 Nvidia GPU or almost enough for a lifetime license of Zbrush. And I’ve been having a lot of fun in Blender already. Picking it up fast.

I was totally bummed a few days ago… Now I’m almost giddy, LOL.


#565

I dont know whats the big deal, If you guys dont like R21 - bevel update? - then dont upgrade this year, save your money, keep R20 forever, and subscribe if R22 has some meaningful content. Be happy we wont have to pay full price or an MSA annually for a software upgrade we wont use. Thats what im gonna do , anyway. Im gonna get back when the new core is ready… maybe in about five years?


#566

I wonder if I can still buy the Sketch & Toon & old Dynamics module for 11.5, they are only serial codes to unlock :blush: -D Wonder if I can grab them for the cost of a single subscription cost now…?


#567

I wouldn’t even be able to use R21 if I paid my MSA. It won’t work with my plugins, which are more valuable than the scant few updated features.

So…with money saved what will it be? Hmmm… Houdini Indie? A GPU? And next year…another $750 to go towards some other shiny toys.

In all seriousness, I should consider donating it to charity.


#568

I’d suggest Blender, although right now, still trying to figure out how to disable that bloody 3d cursor permanently myself… I’m sure there was an option before… And clicking on the material tag doesn’t change to a material properties attributes either… uch, still annoying after being use to C4D for so long


#569

I think we need a poll of what people are currently thinking of doing re upgrading, jumping ship etc. I seriously think that staying with R20 for most of my work is the best option.


#570

If you don’t have Zbrush yet then that might be a good option…modelling is fast.


#571

A poll sounds like a great idea.


#572

As discussed above, I was referring to upgraded perpetual licenses.

I’m not concerned about either moving forward but both the plugins and tutorials have been useful in the past.


#573

why would you want to get rid of the 3d cursor? is great if you want to scale an object without changing your object pivot point, using the cursor as a temporal pivot point, its also useful to create objects using the 3d cursor as an origin point for new objects, instead of having every object appear in 0,0,0.

Example, create a sphere and a box, move them away from each other using G, select the box, press shift + s > cursor to selected, then press period key ( . ) > 3d cursor, then select the sphere and press S to scale the sphere. To reset your temporal pivot point, press period key ( . ) > median point, or period key ( . ) > individual origins if you want to scale both objects at the same time.

Im not sure what do you meant by the material tag comment, you can access your materials either clicking the material icon in properties (the last red circle icon) or simply by using the shading workspace, which automatically show your material network the moment you select an object. You can also have more than one material per object.

Also, use Ctrl + L if you want to link materials between objects ( create at least two objects with two different materials one blue one red, then duplicate them with shift + d + drag several times, then select a couple of reds and one blue and Ctrl + L / material)

EDIT… if you MUST get rid of the cursor, click on overlays ( the arrow next to the couple of intersecting circles icon on the top right corner of the viewport, and deselect 3d cursor)


#574


#575

I’ve been using C4D since 1995, and I’ve always started at 0.0.0 origin and moved stuff manually, and model with one hand on the mouse, I hate using keyboard shortcuts as well. I’m an icon master…so to speak, ok I use the control key but I hate using shortcut keys, because I can never remember them. If I’m gonna transition from c4D as I feel I need to now because the work I’m doing is so demanding with the viewport lag for geint cityscapes and models. I need to work like I do in C4D. ZBrush is so different it doesn’t mess with my comparative brain thinking…so yeah, I’m not a 3D cursor fan. It’s late and dark , 3.50am GMT, not in Blender atm…
Cheers


#576

Ok, yep they did move it, thanks… that’ll save some frustration,… cheers. Strange place though.


#577

I dont know where 3d cursor properties are (I only know the shortcut), but on the top center of the viewport there are some lovely options that in C4D are weirdly placed and visible only if you select a transform option ( global. local, normal), pivot point, and because you are making building you must try the snapping function because is beyond what C4D can snap (especially vertex > closest, and vertex > center), proportional editing is also there, and is more accesible than C4D ( press O to activate it, then middle mouse wheel to expand contract the area of influence )

The only thing I miss is xpresso and user data.

As an advice, just like C4D is a very motion graphic centric package… Blender is a shortcut driven package. Remember, you can move object by axis just by pressing G + middle mouse and drag towards the desired direction. After a couple hours, its just great.

Another difference is the / key to isolate selection, wich is way better than C4D way to isolate an object, wich doesnt work if we have an object nested into a cloner object, and takes 4 icons to work ( ! )

Feel free to drop a comment if you need something more.


#578

Maxon has meticulously planned this for a long time. They’ve done their homework.

There are silicon valley consultants that study customer psychology and there is an art to herding customers into subscriptions. Believe me there is a lot of psychology at play here.

Maxon will use both whip (fear, threat of loss) and carrots (incentives and enticements). Ultimately it won’t surprise me if they come back and say, “We’ll give you a year of Redshift free” "We’ll give you this or that.

Ultimately they want only to secure you into a subscription, without a perpetual license. Then…they got you. From that point forward they are in control. Your artwork isn’t accessible unless you continue to pay.

Wanna see how much of a craft it is to get customers locked in? Check out two of the players:


http://www.biginnovations.com/subscription/subscriptionconsultant.html


#579

Agree. It’s very capable now for hard surface with the zmodeller brush, the new gizmo and interactive booleans.
Great for concept design.


#580

Just to clear up some points here…

  1. The people aggrieved here ARE NOT INTERESTED IN ANY WAY in a subscription, however “attractive” the subscription discount which means the moment you stop paying Cinema 4D stops working, we are ONLY interested in a perpetual license and the costs and future availability of upgrading to a perpetual license and would appreciate information ON THOSE TERMS.

  2. The Maxon Service Agreement was NOT a subscription in the same sense of what you are now offering, stop mis-representing it and pretending they’re the same. The MSA was a way for LOYAL customers to obtain a PERMANENT LICENSE at a discount to the regular upgrade price if they committed to paying for the upgrade 1 or 2 years in advance. By doing so Maxon had a more consistent revenue stream rather than most money coming in a new release time.

  3. We would like the re-introduction of the MSA in the same form it was so that the customer has CHOICE and can pick the plan that best suits THEIR circumstances. If you price the MSA the same as a year’s subscription then you’re not losing any money (or customers), and it’s not as if having the MSA puts new customers off your subscription model as there is still a price barrier to a permanent license. We paid over £3000+ to get on the permanent license ladder, not the “it’ll work until you stop giving us money” ladder.

  4. Please clarify the statement “Some future Cinema 4D upgrades may be available only to subscription customers, while others may be available as perpetual licenses at upgrade pricing.” in your website’s FAQ. Are you purposefully going to start to “hobble” the non-subscription version of C4D by deliberately withholding features? Please elaborate on this statement, you must know what this pertains to otherwise it would not have been included in the FAQs as a caveat. Are we talking about some active bridge between Adobe software and C4D?


#581

Don’t waste your time getting into semantic arguments with anyone from MAXON about “what’s an MSA,” this is an old debate where they play word games. MSA was basically "this year’s cost to upgrade your perpetual license, and because we’re including access to a training site and plugins, we’re calling it a “services agreement,” which they’re going to deprecate at some point because just upgrading someone’s perpetual license and not offering the training and plugins, means there are no more “services.”

This is why the question — which they have not answered on their site — “what is the 1 version cost, 2 version cost, etc to UPGRADE a PERPETUAL LICENSE,” is so important. Not surprisingly this is the “we haven’t decided yet” question. Which points to some of the things being said by IceCave and others to being likely / accurate. The only reason they wouldn’t have clear-cut perpetual license upgrade costs posted from Day 1, is that they don’t want people upgrading. While it seems you can still renew your MSA this month, so that you end up in the same situation next August, it will likely be the last time you can do so.

IMHO this is not a matter of “we couldn’t anticipate every question” (all due respect to Rick, Srek, Igor, and others across the two main sites) but of not wanting to go there. Because it’s the most obvious question there is when a company switches from perpetual to subscription or some other mix. Because if you list your upgrade prices one of two things will happen for a sizable chunk of users: they’ll either say “OK no problem I’ll skip this version and pay my 2 version perpetual upgrade cost in 2020,” or they’ll say “those upgrade costs are absurd, I’m done,” which would only happen if they raised them significantly higher than what they were previously.

As for “Some future Cinema 4D upgrades may be available only to subscription customers, while others may be available as perpetual licenses at upgrade pricing,” I believe what they’re saying is, on Sept 1 (let’s assume they keep that date as an important one), whether you’re an active subscriber or active license holder, everyone gets the same version on that day… but… if MAXON releases new features 6 months later, only the subscribers are getting that version of the app. For license holders to get those features, they have to wait until the next Sept 1, when the mid-cycle features are folded into “the next big upgrade,”, and the cycle starts over again.

Very likely the end-game here is, the inducement to convert to subs will be to deliver (a year or two from now) those key features people have been asking for so long, only too subscribers. I hope that’s not true, but I won’t be surprised if is. That’s just the way business is now. Doesn’t make MAXON evil or the people evil, it’s just the f-ed up world we live in where consumers of all types are constantly having their costs increased, benefits decreased, little by little, so that the honchos in the corner offices can afford their $6M homes, boats, whatever.


#582

Here is a poll i made if anyone is interested.