R21 in one month...we'll know


#523

If I were you, I’d keep on r21 for as long as possible to see how all this subscription stuff shakes out. These things adapt, and if it starts affecting their bottom line, expect to see changes or discounts.

Future updates beyond r21, new features and how fast they come, will shine a light on whether subscribing will be worth it to you.

Perhaps by then we’ll also understand what their plan is regarding the perpetual license and their upgrade path. That might be attractive (or not) about continuing to upgrade with perpetual, cost-wise.


#524

…not sure if serious. All due respect to Noseman, who is an excellent educator and presenter, these features pretty well speak for themselves in terms of their limited scope and appeal. For any truly well-rounded release with serious innovations and big picture workflow improvements, nobody would need to convince you or make you feel excited. You’d read about them on the MAXON site and immediately be excited by them and all demos would be gravy. Possible exception: people who have only rarely worked with C4D before.

Not saying the features aren’t useful or good, not saying no one can do good things with them. I am saying it’s easily the most lackluster release we’ve had over the last several years, less to be excited about than both R17 and R19, both of which were skipped by quite a few users. When MAXON counts the reduction of versions and a new subscription model as “features” — and they did, starting with the keynote and even on their web site — that pretty much says it all.


#525

Agreed. Currently I have, for the first time I might add, not much faith in the way this will pan out. I don’t mind subscription to be honest. I think Adobe Creative Suite is a bargain for what you get. And that’s part of the reason I feel a bit sour about this. I don’t use C4D as nearly as much as I do After Effects say, but I do use it, and to have to pay probably twice as much for my sub to Creative Suite for one piece of software makes very litttle sense to me. And the idea of spreading it out and only using it when you need doesn’t really take into account how I use C4D which for the most part is dipping in and out. I feel confident it is there in my toolbox should I need it. Now this is one very very expensive wrench and I may need to look elsewhere for cheaper and less restrictive tools.

One thing we need to clarify is will we be able to use C4D without a subscription once and if we chose to not continue. Modo’s model I believe is you pay for the subscription and that entitles you to the software and further upgrades. Once you stop you can still use the software you just don’t get support and update etc. MAXON does not seem to have this. Once you stop the software is essentially bricked.


#526

@RickBarrett

  1. Thanks for continuing to post here and share what you know and clarify things about licensing and the like.

  2. This forum scrolled quite a bit in the last 2-3 days and I had a couple questions which you may not have had time to read or didn’t see. I’m hoping you can clarify because MAXON’s FAQs and official statements do not address them:

First one: with the subscription model, has MAXON made any official statement that they intend to immediately move to a development cycle where brand new functions or substantial improvements to existing functions will be released not only on Sept 1 of each year, but at other times as well? Similar to what Adobe does with Creative Cloud? Obviously I don’t mean I think MAXON should say “yes we will absolutely release upgrades for our subscribers every September 1, March 2, and July 17” (unreasonable expectation).

But knowing that MAXON will release substantially more than just bug fixes and very minor feature updates (what they’ve done in the past between September 1sts), is a very important part of “how much value does a subscriber really get besides Cineversity, as compared to a Perpetual licensee?”

Second one Is MAXON willing to make a statement or commitment to keeping the Perpetual license option going for X years? I don’t know what X equals, but that would also I think put a few people’s minds at ease.

I feel like these are two very obvious things that almost everyone will care about, and AFAIK, outside of whatever may have been said at SIGGRAPH, MAXON has not mentioned it anywhere on their web site or through official employees / reps like yourself.

Any clarification on these matters is greatly appreciated and I think will help people settle on their path one way or another so we can get back to talking about the app and techniques and plugins and all that good stuff.

(Almost forgot the third one: Any word from MAXON on what the upgrade iterations will be for Perpetual users who skip versions? Move up one version = standard upgrade cost of ? Move up two versions = standard cost + ? Etc)
:slight_smile:


#527

Based on what is being said at C4D Cafe, you aren’t going to receive any kind of statement or commitment concerning perpetual licenses.


#528

I already knew the answer when I asked at the Cafe, but of course Rick dodged my question entirely. They are hellbent on forcing subscriptions. It absolutely is Adobe all over again.


#529

He sort of dodged it. I think “The speed with which we’re changing is the main reason I’d be hesitant to make firm commitments on release and delivery” was something of an answer by reading between the lines.

I can look at this rationally and say we really don’t know what will happen, but I also don’t like being naive when it comes to my time and money; although, I’m wasting a good bit of time continuing to read these threads because I’m so irritated that I’m being forced to make a decision to leave C4D. I’m still on Adobe Master Suite CS6. If I didn’t subscribe to Adobe, I’m certainly not subscribing to Maxon.

Based on the existing evidence, I would say, most likely, it is Adobe and Autodesk all over again. R21 perpetual licenses are probably only there to satisfy existing MSA holders; however, like Autodesk, they are trying to reduce the number of perpetual licenses through discounts to users who convert their R21 perpetual licenses to subscription.

Most likely (but I could be wrong), perpetual licenses won’t exist by the time R22 comes around.


#530

If they did, they will increase the price again. The whip with price increase and Cineversity end shows everything you need to know about what the new Maxon 2019 era thinks of perpetual licenses.


#531

Btw i found Jan Sladeko(spelling?) presentation in Siggraph day 3 excellent. Noseman instead had not much to work with…


#532

I’ve been so miffed I haven’t watched a minute of SIGGRAPH lectures this week.


#533

Hey Blinny!

With subscription it makes sense (from a customer standpoint and accounting standpoint) for us to deliver features at a quicker pace. We want to ensure that pace also allows us to maintain quality and gives you all a chance to digest each upgrade before the next. There’s more pressure than ever for us to deliver great customer value on a regular and ongoing basis.

With regards to your second question - I gave as good an answer as I can on C4DCafe (it sure would be nice to have just one forum to follow and respond). I don’t really want to repeat myself, but what I’ll say is that it’s not my place to make such commitments and I wouldn’t be in favor of making them - both our company and the industry are changing quickly and while I understand everyone’s desire for assurance I don’t want us to make promises and then have to break them for reasons we can’t fully control. Not necessarily bad reasons either - a year ago I wouldn’t have expected that Redshift would now be in the Maxon family.

Third question - nothing official at this point for future releases. What I can tell you is there’s now only two tiers of perpetual upgrade to R21 (from R20 and from any earlier release), and that there’s attractive first-year discounts for users of any C4D release to get started with subscription.

-Rick


#534

In fairness, y’all should know that Noseman filled in for another presenter that dropped at the last minute. I think he did a fantastic job - especially considering he wasn’t planning to present and pulled it all together in just a couple of days.


#535

Noseman always does a great job!


#536

"Hey Blinny!

With subscription it makes sense (from a customer standpoint and accounting standpoint) for us to deliver features at a quicker pace. We want to ensure that pace also allows us to maintain quality and gives you all a chance to digest each upgrade before the next. There’s more pressure than ever for us to deliver great customer value on a regular and ongoing basis."

Thanks for your response Rick. You’re right above, it does make sense from a customer standpoint, if one is on a “subscription” for software, to receive new features and feature updates more than once a year. While your’ post doesn’t explicitly answer “yes,” you guys at least deserve the benefit of the doubt for year 1 of the new way of doing things. We’ll see what happens in the months ahead. Hopefully big things are in store to regain some momentum and some of the trust MAXON may have lost this week for those not into subscriptions. Whatever their reasons and whatever the promotional offers to try same.

“With regards to your second question - I gave as good an answer as I can on C4DCafe (it sure would be nice to have just one forum to follow and respond). I don’t really want to repeat myself, but what I’ll say is that it’s not my place to make such commitments and I wouldn’t be in favor of making them - both our company and the industry are changing quickly and while I understand everyone’s desire for assurance I don’t want us to make promises and then have to break them for reasons we can’t fully control. Not necessarily bad reasons either - a year ago I wouldn’t have expected that Redshift would now be in the Maxon family.”

Apologies. I have not seen the comment you are referring to or I wouldn’t have asked, but I’ll be honest: your answer is not reassuring. I realize you’re conveying other people’s policies (politics?), but given all the reactions this week to people wanting the choice of Perpetual licenses, I can’t think of a “not bad reason” anytime in the next few years, for MAXON to take away Perpetual licenses and upgrades. Not from a customer standpoint.

"Third question - nothing official at this point for future releases. What I can tell you is there’s now only two tiers of perpetual upgrade to R21 (from R20 and from any earlier release), and that there’s attractive first-year discounts for users of any C4D release to get started with subscription.

-Rick"

OK; I did read about the 2 year sub offer to convert from perpetual, but that’s not really a help to people who may want to continue upgrading as before, but not every year necessarily (also as before). Hopefully MAXON reaches a decision soon on a reasonable perpetual upgrade policy and has enough good will towards its loyal customers to communicate same in a clear way, cost tiers and all.

For my part I certainly don’t expect a “skip a year upgrade” to be the same cost as a “one version jump” upgrade — that’s not what I’m driving at — but I do expect it to be a fair cost and to actually know some reasonable amount of time beforehand, what the cost will be. As a long time customer, I expect that and deserve it and so do many others. Mr. McGavran and others need to realize keeping people in the dark on this stuff is not to their advantage.

Moreover, I get that MAXON has to present this business model change (which always makes people uneasy) in a positive light. That’s part of business. But I think one lesson that’s clear from this week that almost no one disagrees with is, MAXON on the whole did not have all the answers they needed to have prepared and ready, and worse, did not communicate some things clearly and other things not at all. Some would argue the last part makes their larger approach disingenuous, and there was some trust lost I think reading other people’s comments.

All the confusion can be easily dispelled thought, if leadership at MAXON does the right thing and just share their plans more clearly and in more detail. The whole “German Developer Secrecy” thing that we had to accept in the past didn’t, does not apply here. This is not about feature hints or things competitors can get a leg up, this is about telling all customers how MAXON intends to do business going forward and respectfully there is information missing. Important information.

(I keep remembering one more question: :slight_smile: Metal: Apple and MAXON talked up Metal quite a bit at WWDC 2019. I know ProRender uses Metal 2. Does anything else in R21 use Metal? If so would be great to see that on the web site’s “Full Feature List” for R21. Cheers!


#537

Argh. Sorry my quoting got so fubared / tougher to read. Used the same method on all three but only one looked right so just manually reformatted / edited a few things.


#538

We did our best to have answers ready! I’m sorry they weren’t clear enough, and that we didn’t anticipate all the possible questions.

Regarding Metal - nothing in R21 other than ProRender, but as announced at WWDC we’re working closely with Apple to utilize the power of Metal in both Cinema 4D and Redshift.


#539

Fair enough. Nobody can anticipate all questions, although I think it would be fairly easy for those guys to anticipate the upgrade cost tiers and development cadence questions. But I get what you’re saying. Lots of work to put it all together for sure.

Metal: A-OK. Will keep an eye out for future “Metalizations”. :slight_smile:

Thanks again!


#540

Thanks for the tip. I’ll check that.


#541

That’s what I found too. It’s good to know that my RedShift purchase was not for nothing.


#542

Unfortunately, I think this business model is what we’ll see adopted by most large software companies in the coming years. So, if you’re thinking of switching to Houdini, Modo, Lightwave, etc., you might find in 1 or 2 years, the same process will play itself out and you’ll be in this exact same situation. Blender may be the only holdout.

Because I mainly use Sketch and Toon, I’ve not had a reason to upgrade past R16, since very little has changed in the way of improvements. Is there any subscription discount for current owners of older C4D versions (not on MSA)? And, if we upgrade to this subscription model will we lose our perpetual license once we stop subscribing?