Public Beta: Trestle & Scrim

#161

Ok, so:

  • if cmd-space (Mac) or ctl-space (PC) is pressed, then a “lens” cursor appears

  • if in this mode user presses and drags mouse in graph area then the graph is zoomed (right = more zoom in, left = less zoom)

  • btw: in host the zoom’s center is a screen’s center. We think it’s more intuitive if it’s a point where mouse was pressed

We would like to get instructions like that :slight_smile:

#162

Hi, Uwe
About smooth corners

Both. U: enough often a user needs something like attached example. It’s not a creative procedure to surround each point with 2 neighbors + this construction has zero flexibility. Even a future splines in Trestle (v2) are not a best soluition IMO: the “global mimics” should be controlled in Scrim, not in each child.
V: no example, but if it’s true for U, it should be true for V too :slight_smile:

#163

i see. most flexible (from user point of view) would be true bezier. most of the users are familiar with illustrator or freehand and know how to use beziers. but i have no clue how this would work in V diection.

another idea: i know that you are familiar with 3d studio max.
try this: make a line with 3 segments, go into point edit mode, click on fillet, drag from point outwards. of course max uses bezier for the resulting points :wink:
ok, i’ll try to think about some other solutions till tomorrow.

#164

Hi,

Trestle beta 3 features are:

  1. “Absolute” animation channels work for replicated instances (see zero activity of XP gurus though)

  2. Added zoom with Cmd+Space + drag (Mac) or Ctl+Space + drag (PC)
    Added points’ deselection (Shift+Cmd + select rectangle)
    Added commands to change countour’s winding and set head/tail

  3. Misc. bugs are fixed

#165

Trestle Beta 3 seeded to beta testers.

Have at it!

#166

nice! the zooming is now much better.

the master/slave manager is not really suitable for projects with loads of trestle groups.
two ideas:

  • multiple selection with shift key

or

  • don’t reset the window after link/unlink operation. meaning it should stay put at the last used listitem.
#167

Hi, Uwe

Motives/reasons/considerations? Or we should kill this feature immediately ? :slight_smile:

Please be more concrete (see #161)

Uwe, it’s another one try to have a modeless behavior for modal plug-ins :slight_smile: It will not work, sure. We can explain more details why (if they are interested)

#168

Please do not read the lack of feedback as no movement from myself. I have looked at the plug-ins and evaluating how they work first, then I can come up with good ways to integrate XP.

Cj

#169

Hi, Charles

Ok, clear: the solid, fundamental approach :slight_smile: BTW: z-coordinates of graph points aren’t editable in Trestle’s interface, but accessible as channels. We heard an opinion about great advantages if use them with XP (hmm… we personally aren’t sure though :slight_smile: )

#170

ok, all this is about the master/slave manager NOT modal or not!

please do not kill it! :slight_smile: it is very usefull, but not so much when you have around >200 trestle groups listed. i’ll try to descriebe the problem as good as possible… or try it yourself:

PROJECT FILE

  • open the project. around 100 trestle groups included.
  • try to link the last 7 trestles to the one named Trestle_Master in Master/Slave Manager
  • now you see the need for multiple selection
    (if you don’t see it: you have to constantly scroll down to the end of the list over and over again, that’s kinda frustrating if you have to relink 35 duplicated slaves to a new master on a loooong list)

instructions: (in master/slave manager of trestle)

  • hold shift (mac & pc)
  • left click to select trestle group
  • left click to select second trestle group
  • go on to select as many as you like
  • click “link” (or “unlink”)
  • click to select master (all selected objects are slaves of this master)

ok?

now modal:
that was not about modal or not. that was about the master/slave manager listing jumping to the top of the list after every action.

instructions: (in master/slave manager of trestle)

  • scroll down a long list of trestle groups
  • select one (or more, see above) trestle group(s)
  • click “link”
  • click to select master
  • listing of trestle group stays so that the selected master is still visible, not jumping to start of list.

ok?

on a sidenote:

#171

Ok for both ok, clear now. From your previous letter we’ve not understood that you talk about m/s manager window (we thought about graph :eek:).

#172

igors,
interesting picture. how are the holes made? seperate trestle/scrims or a nice new feature? :slight_smile:

#173

Hi, Uwe

No new features, just a little secrets :slight_smile:
Ok, we’ve a question for you: how often you use which mode: “by Position”, “by Indices” etc.? (no-no, we’ve no plans to kill “by Position”, just today we fixed a couple of problems with it)

#174

i use “by indices” almost everytime, it just looks better, or cleaner, to me.

edit: i just looked into my car project. the above statement is not entirely true.
some panels of the car look better with “position”. for this project the ratio is about 70:30 in favor of “indices” so far.

#175

hey igors,
as i understand eps import is out of the loop. ok, fine with me.

as trestle can import wires that are already in EIAS, how difficult would it be to include direct fact import? (this would require support for multiple lines in one trestle group.)

the workflow right now:

  • export wires out of EIM or formZ as fact
  • import into EIAS
  • for every wire (and that can be a lot for, lets say a long word or sentence):
    • open one trestle instance
    • import one wire
    • realign trestle group (location and scale), because the imported wires always take the whole graph) <- this breaks the whole workflow for everything but the simplest shapes. it’s just too much hassle.

suggested workflow:

  • export wires out of EIM or formZ as fact
  • open trestle in EIAS
  • click import fact (opens only facts that contain ONLY wires, all other will be ignored)
  • boom, all wires in one trestle group, perfectly aligned, ready for scrim or some other operations.

don’t panic, this is NOT a feature request, but maybe an idea for v2 or 3.

#176

Hi, Uwe

That coincides almost exactly with our experience

Of course, such fundamental things are only for next versions.

First we see no way to align imported group perfectly (EI group or FACT as well) - any conversion from 3D to 2D can miss data. But ok, imagine a “boom” is here :slight_smile: and we see, say, a 10 poly-lines inside graph editor. Obviously we need much more controls, as minimum to select/activate/move a whole poly-line. But what constructive a user can do with our multiply wires - that’s absolute not clear. “Multi-scrimming”? Hmm… we never trusted that’s a super-powerful way. Maybe (and sometimes) it can give interesting results (we seen no one example though :slight_smile: ). What are “some other operations” you write? IMO it’s always better (and much easier) to start a plan with concrete things that are apparently interested and usable.

Ok, we back to rebuild of Scrim splines.

#177

Of course, such fundamental things are only for next versions.

as i said. v2 or even later. but let’s just talk about ideas.
when v2 is on it’s way into beta, who knows if i am on the team to bring this to your attention.
if i continue likes this, maybe you don’t even want me back on the team :slight_smile:
but here it goes:

First we see no way to align imported group perfectly (EI group or FACT as well) - any conversion from 3D to 2D can miss data.

as it is now, sure. i can see why.
but these wires have information on them where they are in world space. i imaging this could somehow be translated into graph values (with automated graph size change to incorporate values like x: -1500 y: 2567).
for z values there are 3 possible scenarios:

  • ignore them (project to 0 -> 2d)
  • require the user to only use 2d wires (reject other wires)
  • use the z values. in graph editor only x,y values can be edited, but z values can be edited in XP or spread sheet mode.
    again i am no programmer and do know nothing about math :slight_smile:

But ok, imagine a “boom” is here :slight_smile: and we see, say, a 10 poly-lines inside graph editor. Obviously we need much more controls, as minimum to select/activate/move a whole poly-line.

select polyline = double click on point or edge to select the whole polyline
move = same as now, move what’s selected
activate/deactivate = maybe a little window like master/slave editor or rename childs with a list of all wires. with checkboxes to activate or deactivate.
how about a rotate tool for selections with more than one point?

But what constructive a user can do with our multiply wires - that’s absolute not clear. “Multi-scrimming”? Hmm… we never trusted that’s a super-powerful way.

hmm, the reason is the same as “why trestle at all?”!
everything that trestle and scrim does can be made outside of EIAS, sometimes even better and more flexible. but the mainreason trestle and scrim are so great is that they are fast, have great workflow and are animatable to the core.
if you have to wrestle with 10 or 20 wires that form a logo or something, then the current approach is not fast and has no great workflow.
AND that would lead a “possible” way of eps into EIAS. EIM imports them, formZ too i think. Export as wires, open with trestle. voila. personally i don’t have much use for this, but many people do.

Maybe (and sometimes) it can give interesting results (we seen no one example though :slight_smile: ). What are “some other operations” you write? IMO it’s always better (and much easier) to start a plan with concrete things that are apparently interested and usable.

other operations refer to brians comment that trestle should be the 2d hub for other things that are (might be) comming.

as always these suggestions are coming from hands-on project work. give me a little time and i try to put a stripped down project online. but i hope you understand what i mean. english isn’t my mother-language, so i try to describe the things as good as i can.

#178

The life is a long song :slight_smile:

Well, about Trestle v2 - it’s a long way and, IMO, it’s not always rational to see so far ahead. Some things are clear (like Beziers v2), some others are blurred sketches, ideas - it’s normal. Note that a lot depends from usage of Trestle, not from the plug-in itself. If a concrete plug-in would require some wires, then it would be clear how to adjust Trestle for concrete needs. Without this our plans are a bit “abstract” :slight_smile:

#179

Hello!

The builders woke me up at 6am today (woe is life :wink: so I thought I would do something useful…

XP + Trestle (it works!)
http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/trestlexp.mov
The one in the middle has had too much coffee…
It’s only simple, but oh my, the possibilities!

On a related matter, the replicator seems to be broken, when you try to create animation channels for JUST rotation or scale, all the replicated instances disappear…
Can someone confirm this?
Ian

#180

yep, same here.
maybe related: if the position channels are set to absolute, changing the offset values doesn’t always work.