Public Beta: Trestle & Scrim

#81

i checked again, this is the updated beta4 you send out. the first beta4 wasn’t woking. i guess the igors simply forgot to change the version on fixing it.

#82

Well…I’ll have them check just in case.

#83

Brian, my point of view on plug-ins is very clear. I use them all the time to add some fast models to images or animations, to make special effects, to tweak things, … PlacerDeposit is the plug I have used the much and I can say that it has been used in 90% of my work, but it is also responsible of 90% of my frustrations. Indeed, you only can use the animated functions which have been included in it, so the animation part of the plug is really limited. The advantage of Tresle is its animations capabilities. Combined with other plugs, it rocks. But I think that all which can be modified by the user in the plug-ins windows should be available to animation channels, even the resolution control in Scrim. A plug-in must do what it has been created for but some time just a little capability added to it and it is a new door you are opening for other plug-ins access. The secret lies in combining plugs. By limiting plug-ins you are also limiting user creation and a plug-in should be designed for new users but also for pro ones.

#84

Yes, it’s Igors’ fault, sorry for this confusion

#85

I agree. Coordinated effort between plugins is very important. However, there must be a fine balance between good coordination and unnecessary over use. EI’s plugin API can be somewhat fickle when attempting intercommunication between plugins. Its especially prevalent in a couple of NL’s plugins. If the proper parenting order isn’t achieved, some of NL’s plugins will fail to communicate with each other.

Likewise with nestling several plugins under Encage. After a while, the model will fail to update or even disappear unless you go in and force the plugin to regenerate. Real time interactivity stops. Depending on what combination of things you do…it can become mildly annoying.

I can understand a programmer’s point of view of not wanting to duplicate features throughout a number of different plugins… but without some sort of overlap of features, some users are left out in the cold because they either don’t possess the right combination of plugins or the single plugin just fails to possess the exact feature to get the job done right.

#86

Hi, Brian

We don’t understand this sentence, please explain, it can be important

#87

Its a simple task. But I’ve noticed a lot of times that people using Radiosity/GI will use geometry to act as a lighting source rather than using regular EI lights themselves. In photography, photographers commonly use light boxes and grids of lights to illuminate an object. Right now, we have a great cheat with Domus… we even have Lightrig to ultilize EI lights in a grid like fashion… this feature request for Trestle would complete the lighting possibilities by creating custom shaped 2D surfaces, as drawn by the user, that could be arranged in row, grid or array like order, deformed with deformers, and placed within the scene to act as either a lighting source or even as a reflection source for reflective items.

Custom shaped, 2D light pannels, that can be placed in a row, grid, or array, that can be affected by deformers, and have their position, rotation, and scale animated… hmm… sounds tasty to me.

Now imagine that same scenario… but apply it to surface emission particle systems… cool

#88

Don’t know if it is just me but I think the Snap to Grid option in Trestle should be activated when you first open the window. And Igors (and others) what are you thinking about an half darker horizontal line added to the graph editor?

Could the Scrim plug-in have a check box to automatically close a loft between two Trestles and by closing I don’t speak about the actual Close Path option, I speak about an End Caps one?

#89

Hi, Brian

Our opinion is: a replication plug-in is quite possible, but we are fully sure: it should be a normal standalone plug-in, not a set of Trestle options. Our reasons are:

  1. We’ve read your recent posts several times, but, sorry, Brian, for us it’s still not clear why it can be applied to Trestle only, not for any group in project. Should a potential replicator know anything from what’s going inside Trestle? Looks like absolute not. We understand a deficite of many things inside EI, that’s why user wants to have more and more features in one product. But technically “2 plug-ins in one body” always comes to crash, and at the end we would see no one normal plug-in, but a strange “hybrid” that has nothing to answer for a classic user’s question “What does your plug-in do exactly?”

  2. IMO your proposed replication features are more “sketches”, not a “final list”. For example: Create 1D/2D/3D arrays? Not a big problem to implement. Same as to add any number of animation channels. But, unfortuinately, it does not mean that user can select an instance in EI windows (for EI it’s always one group). So, how it would be usable - that’s absolute not clear. And IMO the best check would be to write a draft plug-in and see.

Another one: need some “variability” for instances placement, same as for instances themselves. And it’s already fully clear: that’s much more than 1-2 options only. And no one of them is clear up to now.

Summary: in fact the proposed replication is an attempt to start another one new plug-in.
It can be a good or bad idea - we don’t know yet. But we know very well: mixing all things together makes impossible any progress. Let’s call things with their names, let’s discuss replication aspect separately, maybe even in a separated thread. We would be happy to support such discussion (we’ve a little experience in replication area)

#90

Hi, Stephane

Added today morning (same as Z-coordinate control :slight_smile: )

#91

Hi, Brian

Aha, clear now - for lights placement. Thanks

#92

Hi, Uwe

Clear now (after several hours of learning :)) . It’s not a bug, but a problem that can be named as a “deficit (or missing) of U-subdivision”. Just set all steps/substeps to zero in Scrim’s interface. Turn triangulation OFF. Now in your prj you see enough large quads. The vertices normals are calculated based on both: U and V directions. In Scrim you can smooth V. But not U. Open Trestle graph and imagine a some red arrow for each graph point - its normal U vector, perpendicular to graph’s line direction. If a difference between these normals is big enough, then phong shading produces artifacts. And V-subdivide cannot help cause for graph view it works exactly as Z-changing you proposed :slight_smile:

Looks like “subdivide U” should be added to Scrim, it’s not realistic to require from user to make graph enough smooth each time a point is moved

P.S. How about to change “beta-models” a little? (just something other than fabric planes :slight_smile: )

#93

#1. I’m not suggesting that Trestle be the only source of replication for objects within EIAS. Obviously, the correct answer would be:

  • The host program should impliment a step and repeat duplication feature.

  • EIAS plugin API should be capable of producing individual entities rather than lumping everything into a group.

However… that being said we must work with what we have. Lets take it to the lowest common denominator for Trestle’s main function. Creating wires to loft between. Providing step and repeat duplication functions within Trestle is important for the purpose of creating repetitive geometry. It does not matter that the resulting repetitive instances are lumped into a single group for this purpose. Creating a row or grid of 2D objects in a single Trestle call can then be manually duplicated and positioned in EI and lofted between with Scrim. I’ve given several instances of how this can be used…especially for architectural examples. Beams, slats, rivets, tiles, flooring, fences, anything that requires multiple placements. EI’s limitation of grouping all the instances into a single group actually becomes beneficial because 1 Trestle call can create dozens of objects. 2 Trestle calls of the same thing can create a loft, and 3 Trestle calls can create a loft and a front or back cap… now imagine if you had to do this manually! If a fence row had to be created, you would need 4 trestle calls for each post! 2 to loft and 2 to cap. That adds up!

I completely agree with you that we should produce a separate duplicator that can benefit all objects within EIAS. However just realize that it means more overhead. Why use a plugin to duplicate dozens of other plugins (Trestle) when you don’t need it!

Trestle is going to be revolutionary to EIAS users. I think its absolutely essential to put some for replication function within the plugin for both the purpose of geometry generation and animation functions. Trust me, trust me, trust me… it will be well utilized. And no connecting lines!

#2. If a user requires individual control over a single object then the user will cease using the internal duplicate functions within Trestle and either:

  • Duplicate and place the instance by hand.
  • Use Placer Deposit.
  • Use Igor’s new step and repeat plugin that we will have to dream up.

But by doing so…the user must realize that creating a hundred copies of Trestle is going to create a performance hit…and what happens if the user desires to propogate several individual Trestle calls and then wants to change the shape of the 2D form and have that change modify all of the other Trestle calls. Unless that’s the point of your Master/Slave function… he can’t do it.

The replication calls I’m asking for within Trestle make sense. They do not solve every problem. That’s ok. Variation could be the great marketing point for an upcoming duplicator plugin. But given the extra bonuses of using replication in Trestle for light placement, particle surface emissions, and geometry creation… it seems like an obvious inclusion to the toolset.

#94

Hi, Uwe
Clear now (after several hours of learning :)) . It’s not a bug, but a problem that can be named as a “deficit (or missing) of U-subdivision”. Just set all steps/substeps to zero in Scrim’s interface. Turn triangulation OFF. Now in your prj you see enough large quads. The vertices normals are calculated based on both: U and V directions. In Scrim you can smooth V. But not U. Open Trestle graph and imagine a some red arrow for each graph point - its normal U vector, perpendicular to graph’s line direction. If a difference between these normals is big enough, then phong shading produces artifacts. And V-subdivide cannot help cause for graph view it works exactly as Z-changing you proposed :slight_smile:

Looks like “subdivide U” should be added to Scrim, it’s not realistic to require from user to make graph enough smooth each time a point is moved

that would be cool. i guess real beziers, nurbs or b-splines are out of question for version 1.0. but some subdivision between control-points would make a huge differents.
only problem i see is that simple averaging between control points can alter the wire/scrim surface in unwanted ways.
but i would say that is something the user/artist should consider when using that feature.

did i understnad you correct that z-value editing will be posible? great news! thank you!!!

P.S. How about to change “beta-models” a little? (just something other than fabric planes :slight_smile: )

i know, i know. but i wanted to understand the ins and outs of the plugins first. i usually start very simple. next thing will be more pleasent, promised! :slight_smile:

#95

Hi, Uwe

Splines is the first in list of Trestle 2.0 features. But now we want to add a U-splines to Scrim, and there is no any contradiction here: the Scrim is intended to work with any appropriate child groups, not with Trestles only

Splines and linear interpolation are different things, sure :slight_smile:

Yes, but it’s undocumented feature (for advanced users only :slight_smile: )

#96

Hi, Brian

Please “finalize” the list of options/parameters for replication in Trestle.

  1. We propose:
  • Series X (count, space)
  • Series Y (count, space)
  • Series Z (count, space)

(no “connection lines”)

We see no problems to add them to the Trestle, it’s usable no matter it can be done with others ways/tools.

  1. Animation channels for replicated copies. What channels do you want to see? Give us a list please. Also count the following notes:

NOTE 1: EI plug-in can rebuild its animation channels, BUT it ultimately requires an opening of plug-in’s interface.

NOTE 2: Any changing of replication count kills all animation of previously replicated instances.

NOTE 3: Replicated instances cannot be selected interactively in EI windows. To change their scales etc. user should go to animation channels list and rely on channel’s name (like “Instance 2”)

NOTE 4: Please think carefully do you really need such feature that, in our opinion, would bring more problems/misunderstanding, not benefit. We never shared an opinion “more channels = better”

#97
  1. Position:

  • Series X,Y,Z (count,space) is good. Add a checkbox to allow either absolute spacing or relative spacing.

  • Space value should be an animation channel.

  • Add a checkbox for “Generate per instance position channels” causing Trestle to generate X,Y,Z position channels for every instance created and deactivating the universal spacing animation channel. This checkbox will help keep the huge channel list down to the minimum if per instance position channels are not required.

  1. Rotation:

  • Series X,Y,Z rotation should be added. Add a checkbox to allow either absolute or relative rotation between instances upon initial creation.

  • Provide a single universal X,Y,Z rotation animation channel that will rotate all duplicates at their local centers by the same amount. This channel controls all instances at once.

  • Provide a check box called “Generate per Instance rotation channels” which will cause Trestle to generate x,y,z rotation channels for every instance created and deactivate universal rotational control.

  1. Scale:

  • Series X,Y,Z scaling should be added. Add a checkbox to allow either absolute or relative scaling between instances upon initial creation.

  • Provide a single universal X,Y,Z scaling animation channel that will scale all dupliccates at their local centers by the same amount. This channel controls all instances at once.

  • Provide a check box called “Generate per instance scale channels” which will cause Trestle to generate x,y,z scale channels for every instance created and deactivate universal scale control.

I believe users will realize the limitation of altering the number of duplications will regenerate and “erase” any previous animation channels. They have to deal with the same limitation with the number of control points for the cross section.

Having these additional position, rotation, and scale controls for duplicates will provide yet another bonus to those who use XP.

A seperate duplicator plugin is still worth exploring for non Trestle users.

#98

Hi, Brian

We’ve read your list of proposed features. It can be formulated as: create channels (global for all instances, and local per each instance) for: offsets, scales and rotations. Your propositions are clear. Please confirm this list is FINAL for Trestle 1.0. If ok, requested tons of channels arrive this Monday :slight_smile:

#99

Well… as far as replication goes…it should be. I’d like to look at Trestle 1.0b2 before saying the list of features is “complete”. Need to see how some of your other tools are being implimented.

I would probably say that it would be nice to have a true line segment drawing tool mode in addition to the current chain of points method… but that could potentially wait until v2.

Beta team? Any other ideas?

#100

the list looks fine to me. off hand i can’t think of any other useful, easy to implement animation channels that are missing.
of course, that may change once i use the new features.