Public Beta: Trestle & Scrim

#41

New movie uploaded with animated points.
http://guetapens.wip.free.fr/animations/trestle_02.mov

#42

PC plugins resent.

#43

Igors…

Nice job on the artifact fix. Getting much cleaner shading now… Woo hoo!

#44

The limitation of CableCraft is that this plug-in is dramatically slow (so unusable with complex models in most cases) whereas Scrim and Trestle are fast AND interactive (the preview of changes is updated in realtime). So my question : Would it be possible to allow Scrim to apply its magic when adding a Trestle path in the hierarchy too, that the lofting between two polylines can also be made following a path to model perfect tubes.

#45

thanks Igors, everythings working again. artifacts are gone, great.
scrim geometry is also working great with other plugins. little test with rodeo:
TS02_mp4.mov

now, is there a way to map the point coordinates of trestle control points to world coordinates? this would make it much easier to control them with XP.

edit: what exactly is close path supposed to do? i haven’t found any workable setting so far. all it does for me is messing the shading up.

#46

scrim crashes everytime i try to close path with EI Modeler exported wires, taking EIAS with it.
project:
EIM wires

still haven’t figured out the function, but it shouldn’t crash. or is close path not finished yet?

#47

Hi, Stephane

Lofting and extuding along path are different things introduced separately in 3D apps. Our opinion is same: they should not be mixed together. In Scrim each child polyline is fully under user control. Adding a path would produce numerous collisions/conflicts cause a child is affected by path AND by user’s actions (like initially a child is absolute outside path, what to do?). So, it would be a headache without any benefit.

#48

Hi, Uwe

  1. “Close path” is designed for 3 and more childs (located not on same line) We run your prj on PC, yes, for 2 childs “close path” makes absurd results, but EI application doesn’t crash, right? How about to make “close” inactive automatically if there are only 2 childs?

  2. We seen your experiments with “Circle” + “Rectangle”, you’ve got numerous surfaces overlaps. The cause is the childs topology is not “aligned” well. The details are:

Add Trestle to your prj, click “Import group” button, select “Circle” group and select “Points” radio. The imported polyline starts at right middle point and goes counter clockwise. Now press undo and import “Rectangle” group. It starts from left top corner and goes clockwise.

The Scrim always starts from assigning “U” to each source point. The first (start) point always has U=0, and the last U=1, inside points are calculated based on options. The surface is built between points of neighbor childs that have same U (see UV’s in texture window).

Ok, we’ll think how to use different EIM imported groups effectively

#49

Hi, Uwe

Sorry, but no, animation channels points values should be independant from scale, otherwise host will create a lot of keys each time scale is changed. But graph scales are channels too (i.e. they can be XP variables), so we see no problems with multiplying/dividing points’ values by scales in XP script

#50

Excellent work Uwe. The ability to animate control points in EI offers a lot of potential. We have a couple of ideas floating around about how to govern the behavior of various groups of control points, but many are limited by Animator’s own limitations. But as you know, a little ingenuity goes a long way.

Hey… any chance of sending me the rODEo manual? I’d love to see what it can do.

#51

you have mail :wink:

#52

…And talking about rODEo… any news so far?
My Credit card is waiting…

FelixCat

#53

Hey now…no hijacking threads… this is the Trestle & Scrim beta thread… :slight_smile:

But I can’t blame yah… I’d love to see that plugin go final too. I’ve got another thread in the CGTalk forum asking about it. Check it out.

#54

Attention: NO eye-candy, but maybe it gets you thinking.

TS04_mp4.mov

there are some serious problems and the setup was a headache at first, but the possiblities are promising.

scrims seems to have some problems with shadows (cast on itself and on other objects).
looks pretty bad.

now the fun:
dear igors, i have noticed that the control points have z position values, which, of course, don’t have any meaning.
i completle understand that these values are not editable with the graph editor.
can you make them editable via XP? true 3d wires?
in the example above the use of trestle is somewhat limited because it is only operating on a 2d plane. there is no sideway movement.

now let’s dream, shall we?
if trestle would operate true 3d and patrick would get his things together and start on rodeo again, then we would be only a few steps away from, at least, fake soft bodys.
Maybe i am talking bull**** here, but i think the potential is here.
Your opinions?

project file

edit: i will investigate this further. right now there is no connection between the sides and middle part, thats why it streches so funny.

#55

now i get it, thanks Igors. i actually tested it with 5 wires, unfortunatly they were all pretty nicely line up, so there was nothing to see besides bad shading. my bad.
and no, it took EIAS with it.

#56

Impressive test Uwe. I definitely see your point with the shadowing problems. Needs a little work. Perhaps increasing the Scrim geometry will help that. One of the biggest issues I see using Trestle and Scrim as a cloth animation plugin over being just a geometry generation plugin, is the method in which geometry is being created and modified. (Of course… I’m no programmer, I’m just an artist).

Here is how I see it:

Scrim generates geometry on the fly through a lofting solution based on the size, rotation, location, uniform or adaptive geometry generation and CV point positions of Trestle or Path2Line wires. This means that at any point, the engine creating that geometry might create an unusual or broken topology if one of those factors is really out of place or whacked out in some way. A cloth simulator’s mesh, however, is already “stabilized” or “locked” by utlizing geometry who’s topology will not change but has greater control over the position of each individual vertex in the mesh. We don’t have that elegant of a solution.

I think adding z position point control would be a great idea for applications like your own. Perhaps in future versions, Trestle’s graph editor will be able to work in true 3D space rather than just a 2D plane. In the meanwhile, maybe if you continue to ask the Igors nicely, they might provide a way to tap into each point’s Z channel and allow it to be modified by “other forces” like you’ve exhibited.

The issue we have, of course, is using the plug-in for something other than its intended purpose. We can’t officially declare that Trestle and Scrim is a “cloth” simulator/solution, because its not. The public then sees the product with certain expectations and then winds up being disappointed because it doesn’t possess all the dynamic forces for doing cloth simulation. (Not to mention users would be reliant on getting Rodeo too).

Now that the “official” stance has been declared…I like what I’m seeing. Trestle and Scrim have enormous potential for creating effects outside of the plugin’s intended purpose. Creative people will always discover that and take advantage of it. However, we must state that “mileage will vary” in situations like these. Animating with Trestle and Scrim geometry must be deliberate and properly planned to ensure that the engine creating the geometry doesn’t produce something undesireable. Fake softbodies tends to push the limits a bit. :slight_smile:

I made a test a while back (without Rodeo of course) of 3 Path2Line instances rather than Trestle wires and applied EI deformers to Path2line instances. Made some interesting “cloth like” effects too.

#57

you are absolutely right, scrim is no cloth simulator, never intended to be. that’s why i used the word fake :slight_smile:
but, i think with a little work, on both ends - programer and user, it has the flexibility to be more than intended. it has limitations, sure.

i guess what i really want to say is this:
make all plugins as open as you can, not just scrim and trestle. give the user the posibility to access all posible animation channels, you’ll never know what your own plugin is capable of.

(i am good at pushing the limits :slight_smile: )

#58

Hey Beta team…

Hows it going out there?

A new update to Trestle is coming soon.

#59

ok, last test with this fake-soft-body-typ-of-thing.
it now has high-tech interconnections, so that if one chain of controllers is affected by some force the others will follow.
well, high-tech as in sledgehammer, hehe.

TS04c-mp4.mov

still no sideway movement, thats why it looks funny at the end.

Please, Igors, make Trestle 3d.

ok, from now on i’ll venture into other aspects of trestle and scrim.

#60

You certainly make a strong case for 3D point capabilities. What do you think Igors? I think at least some kind of indirect z position control or at least an active Z channel would be very worthwhile even if the Trestle graph editor doesn’t support drawing in 3D at this time. (Perhaps a future upgrade).