Definitely guys, I think all of those images are very cool! These plugins are indeed awesome. They are a way to create geometry that I’ve never ran into before. Not to mention how stable the plugins are even when being used for something completely unexpected! Great work if you ask me.
Igors, I don’t think you give yourself enough credit. That image was very nice and even though you may not consider yourself artists, it’s apparent that there is an artist in you! =)
A wee project to make a bridge using replication…
Only Trestle and Bebel in this very, very rough test.
I need to improve the pattern… and everything else… and get a reference photo 
Ian
Let’s talk a little about experimenting. Scrim is not near easy plug-in. Yes, it’s powerful, but… it requires a concrete planning of shape, careful preparing of source curves etc. A distance to final result is longer than, say, with MrsBebel. That’s just a lofting nature. A motive/reason of many experiments is: avoid all this careful work and find a way to achieve results instantly. Maybe it’s possible, that’s we don’t know. But in practice it starts and ends with results like teapots above. There is a thing an experimentator often forgets: a goal of any experiment is a nice image. “Experimenting for experimenting” never has an usable output.
And another one: we are preparing samples/images for Scrim’s gallery. How about to help us with absolute normal, “orthodox” images/movies ? (yes, they require much more time/efforts than experiments)
hi igors,
by now i understand that you are more drawn towards the “realism” aspects of 3d. and i can understand that this is more desired when it comes to putting together a gallery for marketing purposes. ok, understood, but my “taste” is different. actually, i think the teapot looks very interesting, maybe not totally refined, but very interesting.
below you can find two new car renders you can use, if you wish. all trestle and scrim, all your babys.
BUT let me tell you this: this car was developed out of experimenting! that’s the way i usually work, when not working for clients. are you clients of mine? no.
“Experimenting for experimenting” never has an usable output.
so, i guess the car is not usable for you…
ok. this is your show, not mine.
:bounce:
this is interesting, remind me Maya splash screen…
these Trestle & Scrim looks interesting & promising
lets see what else these plug-in can do…
Loon
Hi, Uwe
We defintely wish. If it’s possible, please do more renders of this model in different views.
We don’t understand why you need to discover “something special and elite” (and absolute unnatural) instead of just use tools normally with nice results as you showed with your cars. Thank you.
We defintely wish. If it’s possible, please do more renders of this model in different views.
ok, i’ll do.
We don’t understand why you need to discover “something special and elite” (and absolute unnatural) instead of just use tools normally with nice results as you showed with your cars. Thank you.
that’s the problem. you don’t understand why. example:
if you would develop an audio sequencer software, would you tell your beta-tester not to make punk music with it? just because you don’t like it, or don’t understand why other people like it?
so, you want mozart instead of punk-rock?
ok, so be it.
OK! Slightly off topic…
I didnt read the whole thing with my previous post, just want to add something…
I’ve follow this thread on the very beginning… Trestle & Scrim is a very interesting tool, especially the animated features that halfworld has shown, together with revolver and Mrs. bebal, modeling in EIAS is no longer a dream.
BUT I don’t think I’ll need it at the moment , at least no in my “must have” list, because most of my work are still image, and I use EIM and silo for most of my modeling work. Except Trestle & Scrim can do something that other modeling package can’t (or difficult to do)
Uwe’s image do make me interest in Trestle & Scrim, it shows the potential these two plug-in, and how it combine to others (nice teapot)…
Uwe, you have done an excellent job as a beta tester (IMHO)
And Igor, congratulations, youve create another monster plug-in
I hope Ive the money to purchase the entire modeling plug of yours, you are a genius!!
[size=2]Edit: Igor what do you think about this image?
http://meats.cgsociety.org/gallery/199121/[/size]
peace?
Loon
[size=2][/size]
Uwe,
Stunning renders. Great work!
And loon, you’re right, that’s exactly what came into my head when I looked at it; the ‘Wicker man’.
Ian
PS. for loon > http://homepage.mac.com/cake_or_death/screq.mov
simple reactive animation of the replication offset, not a ‘normal’ use for the plug-in I grant you. Just some Thursday fun 
PPS. More normal things to follow! Promise!
You can play 4/4 (DP), 4/4 with syncopes (LZ), 7/4 (Yes), you can play punk, classic, waltz and absolute anything you want. But there is no music without measure, there are common rules of harmony that all styles follow by. Otherwise it’s a noise, not a music. So, we would ask our audio sequencer beta-tester to play music (any music he wants) but not a noise.
Ok…time for the moderator to step in. I’ve suggested that everyone play nice, but we’re getting off topic here and we’re attacking each other’s positions. I’m going to say my final words here and then we’re going back to beta testing.
CGTalk is a professional forum. It is about advancing the understanding of using computer graphics as an art form. In this forum, we’ve selected EIAS as our paintbrush. As we are all aware, art is a matter of subjective opinion. What is beauty to one may not be beauty to another. However, we can all agree that our mutual goals is to produce professional level works of art.
The Igors are obviously left brained thinkers. Art has rules, structure, form and order. We must consider that their position on this is likely culturally based and personally formed. Uwe however prefers a lateral, right brained and experimental process to creating art. Is he disrespecting those rules? I do not believe so. He may break rules in order to find new ground. Is one better than the other? No. Art’s subjectivity is what makes art so wonderful. We are all diverse, creative beings and it is reflected in what we create.
I support the Igors in their desire to place limitations on what they wish to see from their plugin for beta testing purposes. If they only desire realism results from their beta team, then please provide them with that. That is their right. However I challenge the Igors to consider what potential clients/customers they might not obtain if more experimental, graphic based applications of their product is not explored. The modeling market is rather saturated and any extra edge that these plugins can provide that is unique and different can be seen as a marketing plus…both for themselves and for EITG.
Judgement calls on the subjectivity and experimental nature of art should be left to one’s self. However, positive critque and constructive criticism is encouraged. If a 5 minute experimental technique can lead to even greater works of art then that should be explored.
What the CG Society discourages, is the complete lack of originality through the use of preconstructed models and “canned” effects. This is using someone else’s art and models in leu of your own…particularly if its the main subject matter and is promoted as being your own unique work. So, understanding that, I’m not going to tolerate these boards being filled with lots of bad art. In Uwe’s case I do not see that as a pattern. Uwe has created excellent works of realism, therefore we know he has a command of the software. Uwe’s teapot is simply a process of discovery…it just does not “fit” into the Igors’ request for works of realism.
So…let us continue to move forward.
Hi
I had follow this thread with great interest. And i want to add a little opinion. I think this plug in its amazing for modeling inside EiAS but, as designer, i was more interested in the OT experiments of Uwe and Ian… if i need to model a car, i feel i will use a more complete modelling solution, like EiM, SILO or Modo, but the Uwe/Ian tests show me another path that i can´t do with EiM, SILO or Modo. And THAT it´s very interesting.
Keep the amazing work.
This Plugin looks fascinating
FelixCat
(sorry for my poor english)
Loon, your big “IF” and “BUT” tell us: you are not familiar with our conception. Let us explain (of course you can accept it or refuse as you want).
Ok, see attached “b1”. Of course, it’s not a great modeling :). Of course, it can be achieved with any way you want - and it’s absolute not hard and not unique. Now look at “b2” and “b3”. Absolute same. So, what is a sense here? Simply b2-b3 can be achieved from b1 in few seconds only. During a minute you can modify and observe 10-20 variants (depending from speed of your fingers) and select what you like. And it’s already inside your scene. Of couse (no doubts) you can do all this in modeler. But how long you would jump between here and there? It’s like a “competition” between hiking and bicycle, how do you think who will be a winner? We just propose you a good bicycle (no matter you persistantly affirm you don’t need it :))
[size=2]
We think it’s cool and 100% classic image
Rapid alteration to an existing model using replication is definitely a nice feature. Taking the same steps in an outside modeling program would take considerably longer.
Hello Gentlemen,
if i offended someone, please accept my formal apology.
I did not want a fight and i did not want to be offensive/defensive.
I simply didn’t get the message that experimenting wasn’t desired and only final ART should be posted.
Uwe…
You have no reason to apologize. Your expirements are appreciated. This is simply a case of misunderstanding. Personally, I find your expirements of particle based geometry generation very interesting. I actually thought of it myself, but never got a chance to put it into practice. (Way too busy) Any method to place Trestle instances along the surface of an existing piece of geometry poses some cool applications especially for providing that subconscious detail. Experiments with Trestle, Placer Deposit, and Scrim would also be interesting too look into. Animated greebles anyone?
Thank you for your beautiful car rendering. Impressive.
Uwe, one Igor disagree with another Igor absolute every day. But they work together recent 13 years. A some misunderstanding and some conflicts are unavoidable if people do a real work.
Brian and we sent you a series of betas (we don’t remember how many exactly). Yes, they are all buggy, but: do you remember any one that is not for real testing but for “our debug” only? We think that no. Our debug is our problem. Experimenting… but, Uwe, there are facts and assumptions. You modeled a car in EI. From now it’s a real FACT, not an assumption. What? It’s not perfect, there are more completely model solutions etc. etc. Let theoretics discuss what they want, that’s their affair. But the song remains the same: now EI is able to create a car without any side help. And it’s good and right. But, Uwe, what to do with your irresponsible experiments? “Maybe rain maybe snow, maybe yes maybe no” Or what? No facts but only a lot of assumptions …
Well… if the door is open for a rational discussion here… lets examine Uwe’s experimental project and see what it could be used for. Here’s my observations:
With a little effort, the illusion of three dimentional wicker, straw or twigs could be produced. The teapot base sort of looks like a bird’s nest. Imagine trying to do that by placing individual sticks and twigs yourself. Very time consuming. Uwe accomplished 90% of the effect in 5 minutes.
The geometry could easily be given a metal texture to produce woven wires.
Maya possesses a technology called paint fx. We have nothing along those lines of modeling capabitlities or visual tricks in EI. If particle systems could be controlled to deliver multiple Trestle instances lofted together by Scrim…is there a possibilty of creating something like a particle rope cannon? Think about it. Add turbulence, gravity, and other dynamic factors influencing the position of the Trestle particle instance…and viola… But wait… even more ideas… lets add deformers into the mix. Suddenly you could deform the particle group and bend and modify the traveling particle to influence its direction. Scrim’s spline functions should be able to accomplish a smooth transition for this with very few Trestle particles. Hmmm…as long as the Dante delivery is simple… it could work.
Combining this ideology with Placer Deposit could result in a new method to generate animatible greebles along the surface of an object. I see lots of benefits for that.
Ideas and assumptions are where facts are born.
well, some time ago there was a discussion about this wicker stuff over at the postforum, so there seems to be interest in the community. -> LINK
and i am glad that my little experiment got you thinking about what can be done with it, brian. the mission is a success
just to keep you thinking:
igors, in theory, is it somehow possible to force camera to smooth facets over several groups? lets look at the suggested hierarchie:
trestle - provides wires
scrim - spans surfaces over wires
commissure (?) - stiches several scrim groups together and allows patch modeling.
i know this is a little far fetched. all i want is that you stop a second and think about it. would it be possible?
Well… I got a quick and very simple particle rope cannon to work. Only spent a little while on it. Dante seems to work better at it than PPPro…
Both particle systems are capable of generating geometry in OpenGL, but I can’t seem to get a render out of camera that works. PPPro renders a black frame, while Dante only renders a portion of the geometry and the particle trestle objects. Looks like Animator isn’t passing something along to Camera. Plus I need to spend some time massaging the Dante particle emission. For some reason, I can’t get Dante to emit equidistant particles. This isn’t horribly crucial… but it would be nice. Easily accomplished in PPPro. Gotta check my settings. Probably something really easy.
In another experiment, I’ve also placed a deformer on the Dante and/or scrim group which effectively modifies the resulting geometry. Again… no luck on getting a render. Perhaps my Scrim settings are wrong.
Edit: Uwe… you’re on a PC right? I wonder if that has anything to do with it. I can’t get Camera to render any geometry even though I can see in Animator… strange