PROPOSAL..... 3 SUBFORUMS 1 Common Challenge (DSF,HARDCORE, FXWARS)

#4

this idea has some potential. artist can learn things of different interest, for example fx artists can learn more aobut concepting, modelers learn about fx work and generally people can learn about different workflows of different artists.

however, the big question: How is this going to work?
there are lots of details that need to be planned before people can jump in. for example, concepting, modeling and fx work does not take place simultaneously i think. once a good concept is done only then modeling can begin and when the model is done the fx work can begin. its a step by step process.

organizing the whole this would be a challenge too.
one idea i have is, you collect names of people who sign up. set up teams of three, one concept artist, one modeler and one fx artist. of course there can be more than one artist doing ocncept, model or fx.

jumping among three sub forums for one thing can be problematic i think. instead each team set up one thread for all concept, model and fx work. but where to put that thread is something i have no idea about. lol

#5

I’ve thought better collaboration between artists would be cool, but since this is a newer idea, we’ve got to make it simple until it catches on. I don’t think teams would work for the first few challenges because if one teammate drops out, the whole project falls for a team. I think it would be better if DSG gets a few days on a topic, then when all the concept work is finished the modelers could pick any concept/artist the like and model it. After a model deadline, the FXWARS guys and gals can choose models they like and use them.

I think this would work because in teams, members can lose interest or get busy in the middle of a challenge and ruin it for everyone else. Also, each artist in the pipeline can learn what is needed in the next stage of the project by whether or not the get chosen.

It may not have the personal satisfaction of seeing a project through to the end and winning, but I see a lot less confusion and dissapointment with this approach. And again, if there seems to be a lot more buzz and support in the future for this, teams would be fun, too. I just don’t want to see this idea crash and burn on the first attempt.

#6

nice suggestion. this could work!

#7

Hmmm. My whole point about teams was so that people couldn’t just pick any old concept/model/etc. to run with, because the chances that 90% of the people will go with one or two particular pieces of work is high. I’m not disagreeing with you or anything, I just think it’s pointless to have a strong degree of participation in the early levels only to see a tiny percentage of those ideas being picked up and followed through to completion. Obviously I’m making reference to concept work here, but modelers are also susceptible to this (though I’m not sure how the skill level variates with them).

#8

I see your point, too, Jimiphoenix. I just wanted to get some other ideas out there for debate. I think with teams, 90% of the better concept artists would be recruited by all the teams, but maybe not. Maybe Roberto could chime in with some suggestions, since he has way more experience with getting high participation and success in these types of things. I don’t know if his original idea was more team oriented or not.

#9

Agreed. That said, it wasn’t my intention to disregard your suggestion, but just to clarify mine, which I thought was a bit vague in my original post. With regard to a non-team structure as you’ve suggested there is one very clear advantage: you can basically work with the highest level of artwork made available to you through the submissions. As you pointed out, this lacks the personal satisfaction of seeing something you helped conceive be followed through as part of a bigger project.

The upside is that if I put out some crappy concepts and Joe Somebody delivers some very classy designs, nobody (modelers, animators, etc) has to commit themselves to my mediocre stuff. The downside is that, as I said, quite a few people WILL choose to follow through with Joe Somebody’s work.

A nice compromise would be a voluntary team system (in fact, this is what I meant in the first place) where members from the different sub-forums actively attempted to separate into these team structures with individual projects in order to achieve a level of originality in the final result…and let’s not get nitpicky with how many different places a modeler can take a piece of concept art, and an animator a model, because I’m sure you guys n’ girls get the gist of what I’m trying to say :smiley:

#10

Be sure to bring your seasoned crepe pans for the souffle-ing of your life, Kitchen Utensil Ninja wannabe!

P.S. Be in awe of the “thumbs up” at the end of this post.

#11

No problemo - I’ll bring the cream too, so I can whip it at the same time your ass is getting done.(Ohnohedidn’t! [size=2]Ohyeshedid!)

:smiley:

And I haven’t clicked on ANY of these reputation-enhancing doohickeys yet, such is the fearsome awesomeness of their fearsome awesomeness. I commend you for trying to trick me into aiding your rise to power, so I will probably click it after this post. Also…I want to see what it does ^_^;;;[/size]

#12

Guys love the ideas that have been presented so far.
I am curious do you guys prefer the idea of INDEPENDANT teams
OR an UNIFIED Common entry?

I wanted to add that the concept that we migh use to implement this might change.

For example we might decide to do:

The Battle of The Last Dragon & the Last Magician (ala Dragon Slayer)

-R

#13

Roberto - I personally like the idea of independent teams. One massive project might get choked up in its own bureaucracy since this is the first time this kind of challenge will be spanning all three sub-forums. That might be a definite idea in the future depending on the success of this challenge, but my own view is that smaller teams are more manageable (not to mention flexible on a variety of levels).

I hope more people add their comments and that you continue to keep us updated with your plans. It might be a good idea to keep the concept for the challenge itself flexible too, as you’re hinting (for example, as a potential concept art contributor, I really like the Dragon/Dragonslayer idea, but the modelers and animators might prefer the Robot idea from a technical perspective).

Hope this helps, and hope this challenge gets safely off the ground! :slight_smile:

#14

Good points, and honestly, you guys are making good arguments.
BTW Well the only factor that is keeping us for trying a challenge with creatures, like the Dragon one, is the problem with character animation, and the can of worms this opens.
I would love to heard how you guys would take on this challenge.

-R

#15

What problem is that? I’d just get a character animator. Then I’d tell him if he does this one cheap (or free) I’ll make it up on the next one. Of course, I never pay a cent until I see the final product. Then I’d mention that if he does this for me he’ll get great exposure! The jobs will just pour in. I might add that I am not sure if I want to use him yet, but he should leave his material here so I can talk to my partner/investor/wife/clergy. After a while I’ll tell him the job isn’t cancelled, just delayed. Keep the account open and we’ll continue in a month or two. It goes with out saying that we don’t need no stinking contact! Aren’t we friends? Then I’d tell him to send me a bill after the work goes to press. If he inquires I’ll let him know that the last guy did it for XXX dollars and of course, my budget is XXX dollars, firm. In the end I’ll let him know that I am having financial problems. Give me the work, I’ll make some money and I’ll pay him. Simple.

All kidding aside, where are all the other interested folks from the modeling and FX forums? I see fx81 (a seriously great modeler by the way. check out his “David”) but no one from the FX forums has chimed in. This idea will never reach critical mass if not enough folks participate.

#16

This sounds like a lot of fun - but I must admit i’m having difficulty seeing how it can be integrated into the respective forums.
The daily sketch could of course have some topics closely related to the challenge topic over a number of days spread out a bit over the production cycle (I’m thinking of the people who would not be participatin who might get fed up if every daily topic for 3 weeks solid would have to do with this challenge).
But if people are working in teams, i honestly think it would be better for each team to have their own thread with all progress included rather than spread out over 3 forums.
If you go for will bone common entry, there is a potential risk of bottlenecks that depends on individuals (e.g. don’t run this kind of thing while the CGchallenge is on).

I think the first thing would be to break the progress down into some very identifiable tasks that each tema (or the community depending on selected solution) would follow with a set of deadlines (although not too strict since people are doing this in their free time). Eg.
[ul]
[li]Scene/Setting visualisation: DSG sketch on the topic[/li][li]Discuss in groups: Which (if any) sketches would you like to makedown into a short sequence?[/li][li]Storyboarding[/li][li]Identifying elements that needs modelling, filming etc…[/li][li]Character/concept design sketches[/li][li]Element modelling[/li][li]Character modelling & rigging[/li][li]etc. [/li][/ul]Personally I don’t know enough about the whole process to sketch out the entire production pipeline, but I think it would be necessary to do this first and define which elements belong in which forums or which forum’s participants should do a task.

#17

That’s right. In fact, it’s not like there are even a ton of potential participants from the DSG chiming in either. I really can’t imagine it’s because people aren’t interested in this kind of challenge. I’m not sure about the other sub-forums, but in the Daily Sketch Forum the announcement thread got lost in the slipstream of regular sketch threads very, very quickly. I occasionally scan past it without even noticing it, even when I’m looking for it. It might be beneficial to The Cause (:D) to put forward these ideas and the announcement in a temporary sticky.

Overchord, you make some good points. One thing I mention is that I don’t see why the ordinary DSG threads would stop. After all, it’s not a DSG/DSF Challenge. Many of us go to school or hold jobs while still participating fairly regularly in the Daily Sketch, as well as OTHER challenges taking place in CGTalk (err…Society, I mean), and still find time for personal art pursuits too :slight_smile: I’m sure that also goes for the other sub-forum frequenters.

P.S. JTD, the first bit of your post is like deja vu all over again. It’s kind of scary how often stuff like that happens.

#18

I ll make sure people know about thisthread on the next plug.

OK I pose a question to all.
How complicted should this be?
-R

#19

Complicated? I think that comes down mostly to the modelers and fx artists/animators on a team. They should decide how ambitious they’re going to be from a technical aspect together with the team, keeping in mind Pixar-esque quality levels are all well and good, but who’s going to be paying for the render farm? :smiley:
If you do indeed mean how complicated is it going to be from a technical viewpoint, then we probably need more input from the modelers and animators (although in my very honest opinion, they will probably make these decisions once the teams have been formed and everyone knows who and what they’re working with).

If you’re talking about the team setups, the rules of the competition, etc, and things like that, then for the most part I think it’s up to you. The only caveat I offer is the one I offer for just about everything, which makes sense, since it’s fairly obvious: Don’t make it OVERLY-COMPLICATED. What is “overly-complicated”? Well, everyone knows when things start to get overly-complicated.

#20

Well one idea a good friend of mine suggested it to try a challenge first with TWO of the groups.

I was thinking we could do one called “Animal Kingdom” and you guys animate an animal in a real background. The models of the animal could be done on the modelling forums.

What do you guys think?

-R

#21

Then where does the concept art come in? :sad:

Hehe, just kidding, Roberto. Regardless of which two forums end up participating, I don’t actually think that’s a bad idea. It simplifies everything a WHOLE lot. It might be a much better idea to keep things as simple as possible at first, so that with that experience the challenge can move on to something more complex next time (i.e. the whole ball of wax, with all three forums and dragonslayers, etc. :D).

#22

One challenge I want for TWO forums is to try is the idea of doing something called

:“Animal Kingdom”

or

“Aircraft Carrier”

Animal Kingdom

In “Animal Kingdom” models that would have been done in the Hardcore challenge would be used in a FXwars. The challenge would be to composite & animate in a realitic fashion an animal. (For example Aslan in Narnia)

Aircraft Carrier

People would have to build models from the carrier Enterprise. The Fxwars challenge is to do a realistic renderings of the jets landing and taking off from the carrier at sea.

-What do you guys think?

-R

#23

I like the idea. Animal Kingdom seems like the harder challenge because of the organic nature.