Problems with modern art programs.

#65

Art theory is taught to students because it’s something you don’t “just know”… just like a child doesn’t “just know” about one point perspective, etc. Knowing the reasons behind the art is sometimes more important than knowing the craft behind the art. Craft is important, don’t get me wrong, but it’s kind of crazy to focus solely on honing your skills to create when your creations have no philisophical rationale behind them. I like explaining art theories and reasons behind things when I take my non-art freinds to museums, etc. Not knowing or wanting to know that sort of stuff is not good as it sort of makes you and your work more uneducated, and well, less interesting, etc.

#66

I think the art programs had it right before. First they teach you to crawl before you walk. Teach people how to draw then move on to color and theory etc etc one step at a time. There should be a logical progression in what you learn.

#67

I agree with this, even though sometimes art theory classes are quite painful to sit through. I think what is happening increasingly in modern art schools, however, is more using theory behind artworks to justify poor execution. In order for an artwork to be successful I think it would need to be interesting on a theoretical level and also successful on a superficial level, too.

Also, I see more and more that the teachers at my school accept what is called ‘art for art’s sake’ (ie. art that is done to redefine what actually is art, a la Jackson Pollock etc) on its own merit, regardless of whether or not the artworks actually say anything beyond that.

#68

That is why at Yale they do not allow you to speak in defense of your work when you are critiqued. Of course some self righteous fools still violate the rule.

#69

That is one of the best rules for artists - ever! Seriously, art should speak for itself & I think the opposite idea is what leads a lot of artists astray. Most ‘art’ now days can’t be appreciated by non-artists, which is sad, but true.

This is very interesting - I think I’ll try to enforce this rule on myself!

…try…

#70

Firstly ill say that I’m assuming the thread still holds true to the original topic. I havent read the entire topic.

My experience in art school wasnt entirely wasted. It gave me an opportunity and taught me things i couldnt do on my own. However, most of the skills i use now, i taught myself.

I didn’t learn the fundamentals of art past basic art history, basic semiotics and a couple of years of life drawing. What i did get from my experience at university are 2, what i consider very important things, even if they are less tangible. The first ive stated countless times already on these forums, however non-specific it is:

  1. University taught me how to learn - if i wasnt placed into a learning structure, i really doubt how much i would have achieved otherwise.
  2. The university environment cultivated a wonderful cross-fertilisation of ideas, styles, personalities, cultures, opinions etc all which helped shape my art - self explanatory.

oh, and i also have a piece of paper which says:
“Peter Davis was dedicated enough to his art that he spent 3 years of his life learning about it.”

At least thats how i read it.

#71

That’s really interesting, I feel somewhat the opposite, it’s not that I don’t think they teach you how to learn it’s that, in my experience anyway, they stifle most of the passion out of you to learn. Spending so much time simply jumping through the hoops of getting assignment after assignment done and expecting everyone to perform at the same level and in the same way seems like it’s a very bad educational philosophy. Yes, I think it’s very important to teach rules and foundations, but to some extent I think it’s also very important to cultivate excellence in people by encouraging and testing students in the ways that cater to their strengths. It’s a balance, certainly, but people often learn in very different ways and it seems like, at least theoretically the best possible education would be one where the learning environment fits the student well instead of expecting everyone to approach things exactly the same. I know this isn’t always practical though, but find I’m far more inspired to learn reading things here on CG Talk or in a book than I am in 90% of my classrooms.

#72

Hey Simon :wink: hmm I guess it depends on the school. As I too live here in the UK I am pleased to tell you that I am on a pretty good art course. two of my art teachers are allways encouraging us to read around the subject and look at the old masters techniques. My art tutor Peter Beard runs the BTEC National Diploma at the college I attend and he has made sure that we are taught to draw. We have life drawing classes. We have learnt about line, tone and a little about colour theory.

We go into Abstract art too and photography. I know how to process black and white films. Basically he has set the course up so that we have all the skills we need for when we go to Uni and to work.

#73

hehe although I have learnt a lot at college I have also learnt a lot from the internet. I would never have become interested in digital if it wasn’t for the internet. I wouldn’t have become so interested in the old masters if it wasn’t for my art tutors and the anatomy forum here :slight_smile:

This is another thing that annoys me. I always thought that fine art was about painting and drawing. Actually learning all of these techniques, even photography but now it’s turned it something completely different. Modern, conceptual art and installations, drives me crazy. Like the Turner Prize here in the UK…gah! Some of the stuff entered into that is just…to me…nothing.
It feels like art has lost it’s meaning, come to nothing, just a ploy to get money. I know I will scrunch up a piece of paper put it on a window sill and see how many people fall for it and cash in.
That’s why I’m going to study Illustration and Uni.

I agree, art has pretty much become my life. I live and breath art. I have allways pushed myself into learning new techniques, developing my own skills. I get frustrated with my friends sometimes in terms of their drawing skills. They all want to be artists but they don’t seem to do anything of their own that they haven’t learnt at college. I must say though recently they have started working on some of their own stuff, a couple of them are interested in digital art. Another friend of mine wants to go to Uni and study 3D animation but…he hadn’t even looked into the kinds of programs used or how they are created. I knew from hanging out here and gave him a couple of links and some info.

I am eager to learn everything I possibly can, I get frustrated when something drags me away from my art.

(sorry for the long rant. And crikey don’t mean to slag off my friends like that i’m just trying to reinforce the point)

#74

The Bauhaus movement has had a big influence on graphic design today. If you compare their design formats to the work of David Carson you can clearly see the influence their. Abstract art has had a huge impact on architecture too. Then there’s the whole furnature things as well…

Ok so I don’t like most abstract art, a lot of it to me is pointless but there are a lot of of clever abstract artists which I admire like Mondrian.

#75

i can totally agree with that. While i spent the first half of my degree jumping through hoops, as you say, the latter half was spent exploring a chosen medium and developing solid narratives and films. Each student did their own thing. I myself worked mostly from home, but this didnt limit me - i was pretty much allowed to do what i wanted as long as i fulfilled the (rather broad) criteria.

#76

Maybe there’s hope yet then :bounce: I do think there is a common love of learning among CG artists, especially those who choose to spend there free time pursuing more on forums like this one. I guess my biggest complaint is seeing all the other students on my campus who are totally apathetic towards their education, it’s just something to get a degree.

#77

Yep it’s really frustrating. I wonder how they got onto the course in the first place. It annoys me that they don’t share the same enthusiasm, they just do what they are told to do by the lecturers instead of interpreting it in there own way or doing extra work other than what they are told.

Sorry to sound really negative. Not everyone is like this, I hope that when I go to Uni the people there will be more ‘into’ art rather than it just being a stepping stone like at the college I go to.

#78

I can honestly say that 99% of all the stuff i know, I learned myself. I’m studying grafical design and all I learnd in photoshop was how to start the program, draw a cirkel and fill it with gasp a pattern. Thats it. period.
I spend most of my free time surfing the web, absorbing every single bot of information i could find, and i’m glad I did. My “teachers” cough expected us to learn ourselfs, and now my whole class is in a state of panic. We are in our last year and guess what? thats right, we have to do an endproject. We don’t know what it is yet, but our teachers have told us that it’s going to take us everything we got. I used to be laughed at by the “fashion club” (a group of girls with more boobs than brains, if you know what i mean) but now they are running around like the world is coming to an end, and I’m the one laughing (“Ha! Bet you wish you actually drawed with your tablet instead of using it as a foodtray, huh?”)

#79

Yup, that’s the classic Bauhaus and Montessori methods gone wrong. (and has also gone wrong in the “studiehuis” method). Discovering things on your own, learning to learn independantly IS important, but for some reason teachers in today’s schools seem to think that they don’t have to teach anything anymore. Wrong!

A large part of the problem is that teachers were never prepared for teaching in this way and the Dutch government is interfering way too much with the teaching methods. The end of the story is that there is hardly any teaching at all.

It may be a good idea to start preparing for the next hurdle: getting jobs as a designer. The CWI will tell you there is no work for designers/illustrators and won’t lift a finger to help you.

#80

The classes that opened my eyes were color theory and figure drawing. I think I learned more in those classes than anything. Like I said it is expected imo that students only go to college for the theory part and go into their own path. It is all about motivation. I hang with some friends in school that have very little drawing ability. This kind of sucks sometimes when they say things like. “You can just picture it in your head and draw it” I always end up telling them the reason I can do that is that I draw ever single day. And not just that but I look at tons of ref pictures sometimes for some drawings. We live in the age of information and Google is an amazing resource.

I like Reb’s way of saying it and that it is all about mileage.

I also tell them that I have seen plenty of people with poor levels of drawing skill that in a year become excellent at drawing and painting. I have seen some artist on these forums start out a thread and in a years time the divide of talent is amazing. School did not teach those people how to draw, it was motivation and the will to draw and paint.

I am trying to help my friends out by telling them that the only way is to study on your own. School helps reinforces your skill with theory. Some classes like color theory are great since those are still hard to learn on your own
Or even begin to grasp the concepts. Anatomy is also one of those classes. Sure you can study on your own and buy books but it is really tough. And figure drawing is another part since it mostly pushes theory on how to make things feel weighted and expressive. You learn a lot in school but it is mostly theory.

The old ways of learning art is almost long gone. Except on the internet. What I mean by the old ways is becoming an apprentice of some well known artist and study under them. This happens a lot on the internet with the tutorials you find etc. Sometimes you find some people who help out a lot and you become in way an apprentice of a master. This can also be dangerous. Since the masters are still apprentices sometimes.

I felt I bashed school too much last time so I wanted to clear it up a bit more.

#81

STUDIEHUIS?!? AAAARGH!! SCREAM AND RUN! SCREAM AND RUN!

shudders

ontopic: that’s another thing I think they should teach us: how to get a job. I’m just trying to keep my eyes open, trying to meet people that can help me when i finally get that @#$#@ diploma this year (and of course, i just try to stay uptodate with new versions of programs and try to do other stuff to “pimp up” my resumé :stuck_out_tongue: ). I hope that’s going to be enough to stay clear of the Ebvil CWI of Doom shudders again

#82

Same here. I was having a discussion with a friend of mine about this kind of thing. She said she wishes she could draw what was in her head. I asked how long she had been interested in art and explained how ever since I can remember I always drew.

I used to draw cartoons all the time. I would draw animals from photographs and draw pictures of my pets. She said to me that she never did this because when she tryed she could never do it. But that is where motivation comes in. I never drew because I was good, I drew because It was fun, something to do when I was bored. It was practice, the more I pushed myself as I grew up the better I got. You can’t give up when it comes to drawing or you’ll never learn, you have to practice, and try to find a different approach.

I try to encourage my friends to learn things out for themselves but I don’t want to seem big headed or offend them.

A few weeks ago I have found out loads of info on colour theory, I printed it off and stuck it in my sketchbook (giving credit to the original writers) and then interepreted it in my own words. I showed this to my friends talking to them about grayscale, tones that kinda thing but they just laughed at me, I don’t think they meant it in a nasty way. I then tryed to talk them through what it meant but they just didn’t seem to have the slightest interest in what I was explaining.

I am constantly telling them all the things that they need to understand, not just what the teacher is telling us and they just sit there nodding and agreeing but do nothing about it! drives me crazy and then they complain to me about wishing they could paint on the computer.

(crikey long rant again!! lol sorry)

#83

I attended the local university some time ago and they were always at odds with the different streams of creative development. I, myself have always been drawing as far as I can remember…?4 years old, but the educational institution didn’t promote drawing as a critical foundation. I did take plenty of life drawing classes, but my primary was visual communications which focused on type design and layout. There were painting classes offered but they were more abstract, largely being driven by instructors that had no real illustrative foundation. More idealistic than realistic.

Now, I operate independantly as a designer and website developer, which is practical for Edmonton, Alberta Canada, because we don’t have a large entertainment industry that is normally associated with the development of the illustrative arts.I do continue to pursue animation and illustration contract work, but it usually pays a lot less than practical corporate work. Although on the side I have an animation short production and a graphic novel in production where I can do what I love to do.

As far as fine art is concerned it does have a place in society to a point, very much secluded to the class couture and not necessarily art for the masses. Those who wish to practice it should be happy consuming Kraft dinner and looking in through bakery windows wondering why they can’t afford what others can…I prefer to have my cake and eat it too!

#84

thats why i decided to stop working full time commercially and try to shift focus more to fine art that i dont expect to make any money at. i’m too busy making art now to miss any money i don’t make anyways, aside from getting better computer equipment… to me the point is less about making art that has a place in society, than just making the art i want to make without having to please a client. if it finds an audience or venue of any sort, fine arts or otherwise, is not something i can really controll, all i can do is make the art, you know? i’m pretty sure that if i do stuff that i think is cool, some other people will like it, but even if they don’t, i do it because i like to do it, not for an audience. i feel like most of the art that winds up actually resonating with people was created that way. often if you start thinking about the audience or trying to please other people and imagining what they might like, i think it dilutes the work…

and THAT is whot i think the old masters were often missing, despite their technical mastery. it was really the commercial art of its day, the feature films or whatever. made on contracts for commercial clients. of course there are legendary stories of battles for creative controll, but the subject matter itself was dictated. i wonder what they would have painted if it didnt have to be for a church. which is why we all love the surrealists so much, right? i mean, 3d art by its very nature is surrealism to the nth degree, even if we never think of it that way.