Problems with modern art programs.

#60

What I meant by modern in this case is the way people judge art. Back in the era of Modernism, or modern art, either you are a cubist, or you are wrong. After Jackson Pollock, either you are a dripper, or you are wrong etc. In short, I see criticisms here that deal with the narrowmindedness of these cold conceptualist with a different kind of narrowmindedness that is centered around traditional skills.

I am not trying to undermine the importance of either tranditional skills or theory but right now I see a really wide division between the two.
There are, as people have mentioned, MFA’s who take pride in not being able to render, but also being deviod of any aethestic judgement ( I have my personal aesthetics and my subject view of the world type) who will end as assistants at art galleries.
And then there are people like another, who cannot tolerated anything that does not show virtuosity with the pencil and exhibit outright hostility towards conceptual works.

I know a few people on each side and sometimes it seems they are not even looking at
the work during the critiques but rather at whether the work affirms what they believe what art should be.

I understand where the traditional people are coming from and I hear you, but I think I would rather not CGtalk become the Academie that contemporary art has become.

#61

Good call we should all go back to polishing our demoreels, doing our art tests or going back to our day jobs.

#62

None of the original Bauhaus teachers obviously. The instructional method was Bauhaus and by the look of it, it still is. (Warning: numerous pop-ups on this site).

http://www.gerritrietveldacademie.nl/

I’m sure Itten, Klee, Kandinsky and others had different intentions. Itten was on my reading list, but the teacher really had no idea what Itten was talking about. I wonder if he ever read the book.

Don’t get me wrong, I have no problem with contemporary art and appreciate the works of the Bauhaus artists, especially Piet Mondriaan. But I do have a problem with contemporary art to the exclusion of everything else, which is what happened there.

#63

I’m not sure how it is at the “name brand” art schools, since I go to a small liberal arts university with an equally small art department.

I just wanted to comment that not EVERY fine art program is against teaching the fundamentals of drawing and painting. I don’t believe that things will ever move to the point where nobody knows how to draw or paint anymore. Somebody somewhere will still pass that knowledge on. It’ll just be a matter of finding the programs that produce work that you admire.

My teachers are pretty good at getting us to do what is required of the piece. One week we’ll be focusing on process rather than product, which means work that is kind of “all over the place” and the next the teacher will say something like “if you don’t have a solid understanding of perspective and space, then this drawing is just not going to work.” If the drawing requires absolute precision, then that’s what they expect. If it doesn’t, then they don’t.

#64

i agree with everyone!! programs seem to be focussed on pure theory, or simple craftsmanship. i went to a “real” art school, (rhode island school of desgn), and found absolutely zero hands on training in software etc but a lot of theory and traditional media.

on the other hand, i have later gone on to teach at a commercailly oriented software training type school, and was dismayed by the lack of focus on art itself. it was as much up to the students to learn how to make good art on their own as it was up to me to teach myself software at RISD.

fortunately i’m smart enough to read the manuals and use web forums to teach myself what i cant fgure out, but it all takes valuable time and i’m sure i would know even more about maya had i gone to a program focussing just on learnng the software for 4 years.

but then we have all seen people with no eye for basic art but a lot of time spent learning a program, it usually makes me wince… its not one or the other, my favorite art has both. i think thats why a lot of people on these forms still look to the european “old masters” , their practice was about excelling in every area… i think to receivce really balanced training in america you should go to a fne arts school, then take a technical course, but who has the time or money.

#65

Art theory is taught to students because it’s something you don’t “just know”… just like a child doesn’t “just know” about one point perspective, etc. Knowing the reasons behind the art is sometimes more important than knowing the craft behind the art. Craft is important, don’t get me wrong, but it’s kind of crazy to focus solely on honing your skills to create when your creations have no philisophical rationale behind them. I like explaining art theories and reasons behind things when I take my non-art freinds to museums, etc. Not knowing or wanting to know that sort of stuff is not good as it sort of makes you and your work more uneducated, and well, less interesting, etc.

#66

I think the art programs had it right before. First they teach you to crawl before you walk. Teach people how to draw then move on to color and theory etc etc one step at a time. There should be a logical progression in what you learn.

#67

I agree with this, even though sometimes art theory classes are quite painful to sit through. I think what is happening increasingly in modern art schools, however, is more using theory behind artworks to justify poor execution. In order for an artwork to be successful I think it would need to be interesting on a theoretical level and also successful on a superficial level, too.

Also, I see more and more that the teachers at my school accept what is called ‘art for art’s sake’ (ie. art that is done to redefine what actually is art, a la Jackson Pollock etc) on its own merit, regardless of whether or not the artworks actually say anything beyond that.

#68

That is why at Yale they do not allow you to speak in defense of your work when you are critiqued. Of course some self righteous fools still violate the rule.

#69

That is one of the best rules for artists - ever! Seriously, art should speak for itself & I think the opposite idea is what leads a lot of artists astray. Most ‘art’ now days can’t be appreciated by non-artists, which is sad, but true.

This is very interesting - I think I’ll try to enforce this rule on myself!

…try…

#70

Firstly ill say that I’m assuming the thread still holds true to the original topic. I havent read the entire topic.

My experience in art school wasnt entirely wasted. It gave me an opportunity and taught me things i couldnt do on my own. However, most of the skills i use now, i taught myself.

I didn’t learn the fundamentals of art past basic art history, basic semiotics and a couple of years of life drawing. What i did get from my experience at university are 2, what i consider very important things, even if they are less tangible. The first ive stated countless times already on these forums, however non-specific it is:

  1. University taught me how to learn - if i wasnt placed into a learning structure, i really doubt how much i would have achieved otherwise.
  2. The university environment cultivated a wonderful cross-fertilisation of ideas, styles, personalities, cultures, opinions etc all which helped shape my art - self explanatory.

oh, and i also have a piece of paper which says:
“Peter Davis was dedicated enough to his art that he spent 3 years of his life learning about it.”

At least thats how i read it.

#71

That’s really interesting, I feel somewhat the opposite, it’s not that I don’t think they teach you how to learn it’s that, in my experience anyway, they stifle most of the passion out of you to learn. Spending so much time simply jumping through the hoops of getting assignment after assignment done and expecting everyone to perform at the same level and in the same way seems like it’s a very bad educational philosophy. Yes, I think it’s very important to teach rules and foundations, but to some extent I think it’s also very important to cultivate excellence in people by encouraging and testing students in the ways that cater to their strengths. It’s a balance, certainly, but people often learn in very different ways and it seems like, at least theoretically the best possible education would be one where the learning environment fits the student well instead of expecting everyone to approach things exactly the same. I know this isn’t always practical though, but find I’m far more inspired to learn reading things here on CG Talk or in a book than I am in 90% of my classrooms.

#72

Hey Simon :wink: hmm I guess it depends on the school. As I too live here in the UK I am pleased to tell you that I am on a pretty good art course. two of my art teachers are allways encouraging us to read around the subject and look at the old masters techniques. My art tutor Peter Beard runs the BTEC National Diploma at the college I attend and he has made sure that we are taught to draw. We have life drawing classes. We have learnt about line, tone and a little about colour theory.

We go into Abstract art too and photography. I know how to process black and white films. Basically he has set the course up so that we have all the skills we need for when we go to Uni and to work.

#73

hehe although I have learnt a lot at college I have also learnt a lot from the internet. I would never have become interested in digital if it wasn’t for the internet. I wouldn’t have become so interested in the old masters if it wasn’t for my art tutors and the anatomy forum here :slight_smile:

This is another thing that annoys me. I always thought that fine art was about painting and drawing. Actually learning all of these techniques, even photography but now it’s turned it something completely different. Modern, conceptual art and installations, drives me crazy. Like the Turner Prize here in the UK…gah! Some of the stuff entered into that is just…to me…nothing.
It feels like art has lost it’s meaning, come to nothing, just a ploy to get money. I know I will scrunch up a piece of paper put it on a window sill and see how many people fall for it and cash in.
That’s why I’m going to study Illustration and Uni.

I agree, art has pretty much become my life. I live and breath art. I have allways pushed myself into learning new techniques, developing my own skills. I get frustrated with my friends sometimes in terms of their drawing skills. They all want to be artists but they don’t seem to do anything of their own that they haven’t learnt at college. I must say though recently they have started working on some of their own stuff, a couple of them are interested in digital art. Another friend of mine wants to go to Uni and study 3D animation but…he hadn’t even looked into the kinds of programs used or how they are created. I knew from hanging out here and gave him a couple of links and some info.

I am eager to learn everything I possibly can, I get frustrated when something drags me away from my art.

(sorry for the long rant. And crikey don’t mean to slag off my friends like that i’m just trying to reinforce the point)

#74

The Bauhaus movement has had a big influence on graphic design today. If you compare their design formats to the work of David Carson you can clearly see the influence their. Abstract art has had a huge impact on architecture too. Then there’s the whole furnature things as well…

Ok so I don’t like most abstract art, a lot of it to me is pointless but there are a lot of of clever abstract artists which I admire like Mondrian.

#75

i can totally agree with that. While i spent the first half of my degree jumping through hoops, as you say, the latter half was spent exploring a chosen medium and developing solid narratives and films. Each student did their own thing. I myself worked mostly from home, but this didnt limit me - i was pretty much allowed to do what i wanted as long as i fulfilled the (rather broad) criteria.

#76

Maybe there’s hope yet then :bounce: I do think there is a common love of learning among CG artists, especially those who choose to spend there free time pursuing more on forums like this one. I guess my biggest complaint is seeing all the other students on my campus who are totally apathetic towards their education, it’s just something to get a degree.

#77

Yep it’s really frustrating. I wonder how they got onto the course in the first place. It annoys me that they don’t share the same enthusiasm, they just do what they are told to do by the lecturers instead of interpreting it in there own way or doing extra work other than what they are told.

Sorry to sound really negative. Not everyone is like this, I hope that when I go to Uni the people there will be more ‘into’ art rather than it just being a stepping stone like at the college I go to.

#78

I can honestly say that 99% of all the stuff i know, I learned myself. I’m studying grafical design and all I learnd in photoshop was how to start the program, draw a cirkel and fill it with gasp a pattern. Thats it. period.
I spend most of my free time surfing the web, absorbing every single bot of information i could find, and i’m glad I did. My “teachers” cough expected us to learn ourselfs, and now my whole class is in a state of panic. We are in our last year and guess what? thats right, we have to do an endproject. We don’t know what it is yet, but our teachers have told us that it’s going to take us everything we got. I used to be laughed at by the “fashion club” (a group of girls with more boobs than brains, if you know what i mean) but now they are running around like the world is coming to an end, and I’m the one laughing (“Ha! Bet you wish you actually drawed with your tablet instead of using it as a foodtray, huh?”)

#79

Yup, that’s the classic Bauhaus and Montessori methods gone wrong. (and has also gone wrong in the “studiehuis” method). Discovering things on your own, learning to learn independantly IS important, but for some reason teachers in today’s schools seem to think that they don’t have to teach anything anymore. Wrong!

A large part of the problem is that teachers were never prepared for teaching in this way and the Dutch government is interfering way too much with the teaching methods. The end of the story is that there is hardly any teaching at all.

It may be a good idea to start preparing for the next hurdle: getting jobs as a designer. The CWI will tell you there is no work for designers/illustrators and won’t lift a finger to help you.