Painter 11-Thanks Corel...


#1

… for not listening to users. Are you trying to make us hate you?

Color Wheel = smaller than it was before in a default view. Yippee! We can drag it to be a stand-alone palette. Users were asking you to make judicious use of the space it occupies now(in PainterX), with-OUT all of the surrounding wasted gray area. As in older versions, it would have been just right, or even 25% larger than PainterX! I even uploaded an image showing this on PaintedFactory!.. over a year ago!

Palette Clutter and again, superfluous gray space and duplication of indicators.
Open the Size, Hard Media, and Angle palettes. WHY do you need to show the pen nib size every time? While the added Hard Media is a welcome addition, was it really so hard to integrate it into the Size palette? You have tons of room, and you can do min/max size at the same time.

Is there a reason why this is one of only a handful of apps on a Mac that the GUI does not adhere AT ALL to Apple’s guidelines for Tiger or Leopard?!

One positive so far: it is faster. However, your Team drastically needs a real GUI designer. In it’s current state, Painter 11 is just an update… NOT an UPGRADE!


#2

Add to that :

  • the same white, one pixel border on the result of a copy/paste operation. So much for ‘improved layer management’
  • the same funky color banding issues when painting or blending over a transparent layer
  • the same abysmal custom brush management (still requires moving files around by hand)

Does anyone know if there is a way to report bugs back to Corel ?

The website is a little short on feedback options.


#3

This thread on the Painter Factory forums may be the best place for Painter 11 feedback and bug reports.

David


#4

From the Corel website:
Enhanced! Selection Tools
A new Polygonal mode for the Lasso tool, plus overall improvements to marquee tools and the Magic Wand, let you make more nimble selections the first time around.

False advertising (period!).

Most of the problems with selections was those nasty 0,7px ants, and the lasso lagging behind the selection, that is unless your living in a half-speed time warp and you like it that way(?!). Also… after waiting for the ants… feather the selection, and then try to expand or contract the selection. No chance = grayed out.

Now, make a quick selection (don’t forget to wait for the lasso and the ants!). Now choose Widen under selection: look at that fantastic speech balloon - from a CIRCLE! Not exactly the right time or place I intended to write, “well this is crap!”

Now try a simple Wand selection. Again, no chance to Expand, Contract, or Smooth the selection… even without a feather. Oh yeah… you have to click the Transform button or key-combo first. How intuitive… and certainly “enhanced”.

Now try drawing a selection with the Oval selection tool. Now drag it. Uh! Now its a rectangle. But then again… I guess I’m the idiot for not using the arrow keys, huh? Do that… oh how wonderful and enhanced! The selection blinks with control handles each press of the arrow. You could dance along with the “New and Enhanced” disco-ball effect… if ya like a slow Waltz that is!

Anyone from Corel want to explain why a polygon selection is considered “Enhanced”. It was even in ColorStudio 1.0 and MacPaint since 1985! :eek: It IS the only thing you added or enhanced to make selections more “nimble”

Last TIP for today… go ahead folks and import your Painter X Workspaces. I DARE YA! Try: Start over and rebuild 'em… by hand as the previous poster mentioned.

PS: Hey Corel :wip: … you absolutely sure you want to continue to maintain that Corel 11 is an UPGRADE and worth $200,00? It’s a minor update and mini bug fix, nothing more, and certainly not worth what your asking.


#5

Ok I tried out the demo and I have to say I’m disappointed in the update on a few things…well…the new version. Whatever you want to call it. I’ll list the pros and cons…

Pros.
-Nice hard media addition. I like the tilt of the pen for shading aspect. markers looks nice.

-Rotation of the canvas and it’s jagged edges seems fixed.

-Color Management is nice. An obvious need ages ago.

-Resizable mixer palette.

Cons.
-(THE BIGGEST ISSUE FOR ME) It’s still slow. I think they have a typo in 30% faster. Take out the 0. More like 3%. Why? Because a large size brush for oil and real bristle still lag. And I mean above 30% diameter. ( running a brand new unibody Macbook Pro 15 do I need more than 2g ram?) Maybe it’s faster in other medias but I didn’t have an issue with those.

-Airbrush is still the same…too clumpy in result. Hasn’t changed. They can keep that variation but make one like PS! I’ve said it to them but seems like a challenge.

-Oil, Real Bristle still not able to have grain. Is it just me but when I was using real paint you can see the grain of the paper when painting. Why don’t they have that option!? Its stupid. Acrylic has that option and it’s snappier than the others…but I want the option for paper grain on ALOT of the media types. Esp oils! I want to see some canvas texture! geez. Don’t bother to tell me to apply it after either.

-UI needs a change. The floating window clutter can be better. I like the way ZBrush has theirs set up. Makes more sense. They can pop in and out when needed and it’s clustered and still modifiable. Best of all your not distracted by the desktop in the background! That option is nice. For the app to take up all the viewing space with a solid bg.

-Preview window for Filters. STILL?! That tiny little window…GOD I LOVE IT. lol I don’t understand why they can’t make it so you can see the result on the canvas. I don’t even want to see if there’s a better curves adjustement filter. Won’t bother checking.

This update in general is a miss as a full version. X.5 yes. But what the heck do I know right? I think I will go easy on the dev team at Corel & stop complaining about how Painter has missed a few things and go over to Adobe and complain how they spoiled me. LOL. I kid I kid.

Seriously though Painter is nice…just some things that Isn’t perfect and it’s a shame those things aren’t changed sooner rather then later…or never ( remains to be seen ). Biggest thing is the speed/performance and grain for oils and real bristle. Airbrush would be nice to change but I can jump over to PS…again. lol
I for one won’t be updating.


#6

The airbrush mode is much worse than it used to be! Clumpy?! It leaves drastic dirty rings around color changes, the same as 9 and X before the updates.

Try painting with only a gray ramp, and you’ll get multi-colored rings and artifacts. Yes I checked to see that Color variations weren’t on. Also, when choosing the soft 50 Air the first time, Grain slider showed up at the top. I chose it again, and the grain slider was gone.

BTW: The horizontal lines are also back when zooming or working on a layer, sometimes when painting. I thought THAT… and the artifact rings were taken care of LONG ago!? Unbelievable! 1 Step forward… 3 steps back.


#7

I haven’t downloaded the trial but I must say when I read the blurb I was surprised that nothing about the new features jumped out at me. Indeed, I failed to find anything which prompted me to say, “Yep, that sounds like a great feature”. And reading this thread there’s little that makes me eager to give it a go and change my mind.

And if the filter preview windows really are still tiny (and, in the case of Match Palette, completely inaccurate), after all I and everyone else has said, then that’s almost unbelievable.


#8

There are two places at The PainterFactory to post threads or messages about Painter 11:

For topics related to general understanding and use of Painter 11, post your threads or messages in the Corel Painter 11 - New Version! forum.

For technical issues and bug reports that will involve the Corel Painter development team, post your threads or messages in the Got a Question/Technical Issue/Bug Report for the Painter Team? forum.

Jinny


#9

Jinny they read these forums. And if they don’t it’s a waste of FREE feedback. It’s a forum titled Corel Painter. I’ve mentioned these issues to them so it’s useless no matter how you spoon feed it. They know. What they do with this Free info is up to them.
Once upon a time prior to the net one would have to harass someone to get feedback about their product(s). Mail ins and phone numbers. Now it’s too easy it’s everywhere. Whatever. Autodesk will buy everything eventually. lol i kid i kid.


#10

I was wondering how long it would take the #1 Painter Cheerleader “Jinny” to come to Corel’s rescue. Jinny: we’ve been through all of this before more than a year ago. I, as well as many others contributed to the Painter wish-list both here… and at PaintedFactory.com.

At that time, PainterX was already over a year old, and had seen only 1… I repeat “ONE” update i.e. bug-fix. So, considering that many, and if I dare say MOST of the bug-fixes went unfixed and ignored THEN, or they popped up their ugly heads AGAIN(!) in this “new version”… what should we do differently THIS time around?

I do believe that no matter what we as professional users wish for or want, Corel WILL ignore us. Last time I even went so far as to point to other websites, for other software, that had wish lists set up so that you didn’t have duplicates… and people could vote on the ones they needed most, similar to http://aerotaskforce.com/. A wonderful system that lets the developers prioritize what needs to be addressed. Did Corel do that? No.

So Jinny… please tell… WHAT can we as users do NOW(!) and differently, to help the people at Corel develop Painter to it’s fullest underlying ability?

If memory serves me (it’s here somewhere), I personally was “shot down” and told to shut up (basically) after Rob MacDonald announced that a new version of Painter was coming, and Quote, “…we’re working on some great stuff”. I held my end of the deal… stopped posting… and was patient. So now may I please post, “SHOW ME THE GREAT STUFF ROB!” A polygon lasso tool, re-sizable palettes, color sliders, and Color management done right… is NOT DOING IT FOR ME, and dare I say, definitely does NOT qualify as “great”’ in this day and age.

If I may be so bold as to possibly speak for other pro-artists and illustrators around here, we do NOT need Webinars on how to make paintings from photos with one click. We NEED software and a toolbox that “works”, and gets out of our way so that we can CREATE. Most of us know what we want and how to do it with different mediums since childhood, with training, and have practiced for many 1000’s of hours to perfect our craft. Today that means digitally with computers and software. Painter WAS a great jump to bridge the divide between traditional and future mediums. WAS. It has since version 8, and still is with version 11, lagging far behind the advances of the technological possibilities of the day. Do something about it, or at least turn it all over to the Open Source community if it’s not financially advantageous for you (Corel) to continue developing.

PS: And to think we were discussing here Open GL support, Core technologies, etc. being integrated. Makes us look downright foolish for wasting our time “dreaming”.

PSS: That 30% speed boost claim needs to be verified… AND Adobe just released an update to PhotoShop CS4 that does just that… and it was FREE!

PSS: Give me software worthy of the word “great”, and I’ll fork over a grand if ya need it. Did that with Adobe CS3 and CS4, and it was worth every penny to me!


#11

photoshop cs4 64bit is a monster. I have switched over to photoshop for now for digital work. less pain more work.


#12

Quote from Corel Website:

Enhanced! Adobe® Photoshop® Support

Maintain colors and layers when transferring files between Photoshop and Painter. This saves time when importing and exporting artwork between the two programs, because corrections are less necessary.

NOT TRUE and false advertising. (Who wrote that last line? Horrible English!)

Any layer that has an effect, or image that makes use of Adjustment layers, will NOT be imported to Painter. Also, Blending methods not supported by Painter will be ignored and throw a warning on opening. The layer is still there, but does nothing. Also, the same warning will pop up even if the method IS supported, like Multiply or Screen. However, it does display correctly.

Good news: layer opacity and layer mask comes in. Again, only with supported blending modes. Is better than before? Yes. Is it 'great"? No.

Once again, you will have to maintain separate working versions, or plan out your work-flow accordingly and ahead of time. OK… I wasn’t expecting anything different in regards to that. Safer anyway.

Bad news: fat colored,alternating polo-stripes (about an inch wide!) when zooming in and out, specifically at 75%.

No it’s not my system! A Jan.2008 8-Core MacPro - 16gb RAM - NVIDEA 8800GT - 512mb


#13

ABOLUTELY AGREE! However… there were and still are times in my work where I want that super fast (with Custom Palettes) sketching, drawing, painting, etc. ability. Painter DID fit that space. It is why “bugs” are not allowed. Did I say “fast”? PS-CS4 is a dream come true these days… although, almost “too perfect”. And the age-old “Just Add water” blend tool in Painter is almost indispensible for me. Although I have been working on some great presets with Smooth tools and scattering. A post is here on CG how to do that. Great stuff!

Like I’ve always said, Painter is a great toolbox to have at your disposal, but woefully under-developed, and with each new version (so that it works seamlessly with new OSes) is a digital bug-fest and almost always dissappointing visually (GUI) to open.

My box: CS4 (all), PS, LightRoom, Aperture, Pixelmator… and assorted utilities with gorgeous, get-work-done, interface-outa-the-way, screen real-estate efficiency… and then Painter! Which looks like GIMP running under an x11 window emulator… and performs about the same (nothing against Gimp here… it’s the emulator).

Anyway… I’ll be skipping this UPGRADE and wait for an update/bug fix… or new version next year.

PS: Just curious: how’s Painter looking under Vista-64, soon to be Win7-64? Anybody?


#14

It looks the same in Vista 64 though the new version does support ram beyond 8GB as opposed to crashing in earlier versions if u have anything more than that. It was only in windows version I think.

Since the CS4 release I have grown accustomed to missing the blending engine from painter. And the workflow is fast.

If u want sketching stuff ( not at the level of painter but pretty neat ) u might want to try the upcoming version of sketchbook pro 2010. From the preview vids its looks like an awesome tool for skteching and roughing things out fast. Some innovative features I had wanted in 2d apps for a long time for professional Digital Artists.


#15

Bug Fix: Turn off (uncheck) “Draw zoomed-out views using area-averaging” in Preferences -> General. Also improves the rendered picture when zoomed out (50%-66%-75%), instead of being pixelated.

New Bug: no document image (thumbnail) icons for jpg, psd, tiff, or png (I didn’t try the rest) in Icon or Column view from a Mac, also doesn’t show a preview in CoverFlow; only a Painter document icon with TIF, JPG, etc. overlayed. QuickLook however works.

New Worthlessness: PNG - no dialog box to alter settings, like color depth or transparency settings. Hence, a meaningless format since you’ll still have to round-trip back to PS or graphic converter of choice to do this PROFESSIONALLY. Does respect transparency though if the Canvas layer is turned off.

Unfixed PainterX
Bug 1) Windows, and sometimes palettes open up behind the upper status bar. Fix: Move bar to access Palette or Window title bar.
Bug 2) Also, when dragging a doc to a window or the Painter Dock icon, all Palettes and status bars dissappear. Fix: you must choose manually from the Menu ->Window->Hide Palettes… TWICE! Don’t forget that: 2 times! OKay. good to go now :slight_smile:


#16

… and headed straight over :slight_smile:


#17

Pros:
1)Now multi-layered PSD-s images sived with normal one-layer preview image - that means two sweet things: now, then you save multi-layer PSD from painter, you can see it in ACDsee (or anwer image viewer) - no blank white image! And second - there no stupid PREVIEW.PIX files, that old versions of painter generates all time you save layered PSD.
2)FINALLY! Color weel now resizeble - http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/6082/painter11colorweeeeeel.jpg
3)Now option “Draw zoomed-out views using area avergaging” is enabled by default - YEAH, in 2009 year Painter able to make anti-aliasing! Amazing! PS. That options works fine since painter 9.x, in 10-10.1 versions it cause artifacts then enabled, in 6-7-8 versions it wont work if you enable it.
4)10% less kittens!

Cons:
1)Still painter v6 engine :frowning: - that means nothing seriosly changes, and painter still CANT use more than 1 gb RAM - you can have 16 gb in your system, but painter will swap on HDD after reaching 1 gb RAM limit. You can check it :smiley:

2)No GPU support… no multhi-tread cpu support… its realy old engine - and still 32 Undo’s limit :smiley:

Anyway - i prefer “SAI paint tool” for drawing ^____^. Painter just for evil brushes or natural media sometimes.


#18

Personally, I rarely see a product try to cater to both hobbyists and professionals at the same time and still succeed, but I think it’s a blurry line when it comes Corel’s attempt to cater to the photographers who want to create pseudo-paintings from their photos for clients who want a more painterly look. Obviously, professional photographers are also professionals, except they aren’t professional painters, so they need a tool that can allow them to mimic the look of paintings with their photographs, as there is a demand for that style from clients. Whether that form of photography is artistically valid or not is not something anyone can really say with absolute authority, so Corel simply provides the easiest to use tools for it. I can understand their decision to do so, as Corel is first and foremost a business, and they are in it to make a profit.

As for not getting past bugs fixed or adding much requested features, I’m guessing that if we were to get their programmers in here and ask point blank, it’s probably due to the difficulty level. I know nothing about the codes behind Painter, so I have no idea if fixing things or adding things would require significant rewrite of the code base. Sometimes software products eventually paint themselves into a corner and cannot evolve any longer because the code is simply too archaic and inefficient for today’s operating systems and hardware (after all, the original versions weren’t coded for today’s OS and hardware). Sometimes a total rewrite is required if the product were to continue to compete in the marketplace, sometimes the company gives up and make it free or open-source, and sometimes they just kill it and forget about it. I don’t know if anyone outside of Corel can reliably know where Painter is at and how far it can still go. I do know that there are a few alarming signs, and I’ve been quite vocal about my personal issues with Painter in the past, and I’ve done my best to make them known to Corel by either posting about them publicly, adding them to official feature request lists, and actually discussing them with Corel directly. As of now, the answer has been that the problems relevant to my workflow are too hard to fix or not part of their priority according to their place in the market.

I haven’t tried 11 yet, but I will soon when I find the time. Can those of you who have tell me if they fixed the most grating problem for professional artists–the way transparent pixels are treated as white color when you blend on another layer without checking the “pick up underlying color”? That is the number issue for me, as professional artists very often must keep as many different things on separate layers as possible–to be able to shuffle them around and edit them at will. Being forced to use “pick up underlying color” negates any benefits gained from having separate layers. The best example is if I want to keep a character’s hair on a separate layer so that I can easily change the background behind the hair strands later if I wanted to, or simply change the hair itself to different color or contrast/value. Now, if I wanted to paint soft feathered strands of hair, I must use a brush with some kind of bleed or blend–that’s when I run into the problem. If I check “pick up underlying colors,” my separate layer of hair becomes useless because now it contains some of the background as well.

I don’t program so I have no idea if it’s even possible to fix the white as transparent pixel problem. In Photoshop, since there’s no actual blending going on between the layers, when you use the smudge tool, you are only altering the pixels on that layer–but what that allows is for you to fake a blend, feather, soften, without any artifacts. It’s not totally ideal if you want a realistic wet-on-wet solution, but it’s still better than nothing. I wish Corel could at least implement that as an alternative so we can use it if we want, instead of having to use Photoshop to get it.


#19

Unfortunately, that ‘white pixels for transparent layer’ is still a problem.

I also noticed these white pixels appearing around the edge of the canvas using blending tools (something I can’t remember seeing in Painter X).


#20

In response to “Lunatique”:
I do believe you’re being too kind. First and foremost, because Corel has a “hobbiest” version (from their website): Painter Essentials 4 - “Transform photos into stunning paintings”.

I have no problem with them adding that feature into Painter “Pro”. I DO have a problem if that is the only part of the program that they are working on, considering the huge number of user complaints re: bugs, and not taking the time to update their GUI to 2009 standards, or make Painter work with modern, new computers and tech.

Re: GUI - I as well no one here has asked them to redesign their GUI to look like PS, or any other for that matter. However, it HAS been agreed on I think unanimously, that there are areas that they should… and if I must say personally…MUST… fix and/or improve upon.

Re: Programming - certainly I believe it is a time consuming and demanding task. However, THAT is their business, just as creating illustrations is yours and mine. We do our utmost to deliver thoroughly professional jobs, at a competitive price. Why should we not hold a software company to those same principles?

As I mentioned in a previous post, when I go through my tool box on my Mac, the ONLY program that stands out as NOT being up-to-date technologically… is Painter.

Corel has shown with it’s other products, that they CAN do a new GUI on an existing core engine… again, see Painter Essentials. Only difference is that they decided to cripple the version, so as to up-sell to Painter “Pro”. From a management and program perspective, a totally stupid implementation, because the GUI in Essentials and Painter are completely different, and will seriously confuse someone when switching i.e. start over learning the Painter “Pro” version.

Good GUI Example: let’s take Pixelmator.
Started in 2007 by 2 brothers. Appears to be about 6-7 additional contributing programmers on their team. In 2 years time, that small team has built a serious, low-cost (~$60,00) alternative to the almighty PhotoShop, that does elegantly, 90% of what a lot people do with PS or PS Elements. 100% Mac native and Photoshop compatible. NOTE: if you don’t know already, Painter was developed first and foremost for the Mac… I believe in '87. Emulating, to an extent, the GUI guidelines from Apple, is not a bad thing for PC programs geared towards the graphics industry and future tech.

Yes, it is apparent that I use a Mac… HOWEVER, some of the deficiencies and inefficient GUI problems, are also on the PC side, where I also worked from '99-2004 (84-99 and 2004-present Mac). It will only become worse, as we have already heard from posters working on Vista 64, soon to be Win7.

Painter the program, is not the problem. It being in the hands of Corel…IS!
Set it free. Sell it, give it away, invite other innovative programmers to take over development… whatever. But PLEASE do not let it die or stagnate, until the day where we can no longer even install it because we are using a post-WinXP operating system and modern, new computer.

We as users have tried to help Corel:
with wish lists; bug fixes, tricks, workarounds and help; volunteer, user-contributed forums for newbies, like this one here, etc. THEY have refused to respect us by at least giving us a stable base to work from (Painter); have NOT even scratched off the Top 10 most posted about bugs and/or GUI problems; and continue to shyster us out of our money for half-baked new “versions”… which in truth are almost always just an “update”… that tend to break more things than it fixes. (Almost 4x what those brothers want for the whole program? - for an “upgrade”?!)

PS: Take a look at the Pixelmator site only as an example… and dream what Painter COULD work and look like… or what those 2 guys could do with the Painter engine.

PSS: Calling John Derry and Original Painter Team: “Remember way back, when you were those guys? Wouldn’t it be great to experience your youth again?!”! Hint-Hint :slight_smile: