OT:XSI price drop, how is Maxon gonna compete ?


totally agree on that, bully.


I had to learn most of my character-Base-knowledge (apart from c4d handbook) from Lightwave & Maya-books.
The good thing is ,you get to know about the other apps a little–


Its true they need to take this as a treat to their company as its a treat to all 3d software

When was the last time you went to the maxon site to learn something you did not know already.Most people come here for tips.I would love to have gotten 5 DVDs with learn materal.
Yeah price is a big thing but if you dont provide materal for people to advance in your software you lose in the long run

Come on maxon im ready to be Shocked


i’d agree that there isn’t loads of training material…but things are improving.
jannis cds are uk released initially but are available in the US afaik…but other than that…the maxon latest cd was US lead rather than UK and jannis is not maxon…he’s a independant as opposed to being part of maxon. There is far more training material available in german than english…either US or UK…and that material is limited so it would be nice to see maxon building on there recent training cd with more stuff…rather like these softimage cds…they are approved very good from what i’ve read…its pretty hard for individuals to get publishing deals as publishers look at how many seat cinema 4d sells etc…so it might be better for maxon to take the lead on this sort of thing rather like plugin cafe but for training materials.
the pace of its software development in recent years has also not helped imo.
i think things are improving just slowly…but they are improving.


I guess Maxon made a start with this by providing vtms with BP2. Hopefully they’ll carry through with that in future releases.


I think what should be done is for some of the best with in this forum come together
on ideas and make there own learning material.A group project yes i know some are busy
but if you take time to come here and put your 2 cents in then you have time to write a few ideas.We are as responsible as much as Maxon to make this software grow.Im tired of hearing that cinema is 3d software with training wheels.Its possible to do things in cinema that
are being done in other High end software.


well yeah i agree with ya bud…but my one gripe with that and S&T was the omission of a physical manual which is not a substitute and the best way to hack me off…pdf’s just don’t cut i’m afraid and its about profiteering…but this is definitely a topic i shouldn’t comment on without fear of offense… i don’t mind paying for a manual to be included… after all i have in the past … i just don’t like the separation of the process and to me shows a sloppy attitude …
on the one hand…saying yes we are serious about training our userbase …but on the other not supplying you with a paper manual because of it increases the bottom line. Argghh well bring on the flames i guess…i couldn’t help myself…its a personal opinion at the end of the day.


we (the users) are certainly not responsible for that.
This is not open source.
How many would be willings to–say, invest a monthly fee into a tutorial pay-site ?
This pay site could then pay experienced users to do tutorials.
In the end, to produce good tutorials is very time consuming.
And those knowing the tricks are not necessarily the best teachers/authors.

To be honest,I doubt it would work, tutorials coming from the user-base and not from the publisher will remain a work of a passionate few.
(Me not included, I write a mini-tut from time to time and like to discuss about software/art here, but when I want to work without pay I would rather work on my creative non-profit projects then to create tutorials).



for someone new to 3d buying c4d just wouldn’t be cost effective, the feature list of foundations blows c4d’s base package out of the water


True that is,
but I remember when I was new to 3d , the feature list was not everything.
I got the demos available at that time and found Cinema to be the app i instantly felt at home with.
There were a few times when I advanced when i felt I could have made a better decision, but most of the shortcomings have been taken care of up to now, most in a very pleasing way (Sketch & Toon is world-class, as is Bodypaint).
Still some gaps, I agree.

XSI was not available and much too expensive then, so who knows which software I would choose nowadays.

Might be different—might be XSI
on the other hand,

Cinemas has never looked better than today.
And who knows what they announce today at Siggraph.
Although it better be something that is being recognized outside the Maxon user-base.

Did I say I am really curious?



Olli Wuensch

Yes i understand what your saying,No one would dedicate there time for no pay.
But you also have to see it like this.its our responsiblity to boost this program
take it passed the hobby stage.Have studios take it as a high end software
and use it more.This would never happen if people dont advance.If the software becomes
bigger then it leads to better times for all


Naahh— its not really our responsibility—
I dont write the manual for my car so other people can drive it too–
I show my wife, maybe some friends, but I dont write a manual–
Users creating interesting work is good advertising for the app, I agree–
but its the publishers responsibility to make it possible to properly understand and use the tools he is selling.
A task at that Maxons qualities still need some improvement (although its getting better).

I like the tool, I like to use it, but its still that i am paying to use the software, not the other way around.

Of course I like to help when I see a problem posted on a board like this by a user in need.
Everybody knows the situation when you get stuck, and I am happy when I can help (and that others help me when I get stuck).



theres a new modelling software called Modo

But once again those not play well with cinema no export feature
But it those for maya and lightwave :hmm:


Cinema has a very good LW importer.


yeah but you’ll be convinced youre modelling in cinema…i’m sure you can change the gui or something on that can’t you…until it comes to save as…Errrm Errrm…NO damn it…the company sold my cinema seat…now i gotta use someone elses renderer! this is gonna take an age…heh heh.


It’s not about profiteering. I think you haven’t the slightest idea of the printing costs Maxon ran into with version 8. We print our own localized manuals of VectorWorks - I know what the costs can be. B.T.W., did you know that Maya - both Unlimited and Complete - come without a printed manual. Unlimited is around $7500, if I’m not mistaken, and still no printed manual. If you really need a printed manual, you can still order it, or run it through your own printer. It’s even handier to do the latter, because then you will have seperate pages.



The 3D market seems to be evolving in an intersting way. One market segment is the “3D professional” who specializes in 3D (this is the ‘traditional’ sgement), the other is the “Designer” for whom 3D is just one of many tools. I suppose a 3rd might be the hobbyist…for which Cinema4D CE+ or Blender is perfect!

I’ve been both. As a “3D” person I used 3DS MAX, but as the nature of my work became more diverse it became harder to jump from FLASH to 3DS MAX (after not using it for months) to Director to After Effects to Premiere back to FLASH, etc. That is one reason why I switched to Cinema4D. That is also one of the reasons I didn’t switch to MAYA.

Other reasons were price & intergration with Photoshop & AfterEffects.

So it will be interesting to see if developers begin to target these different users and distinct markets.


yep profiteering is a bit of a strong word really…i’d agree…my bad.
i’m not talking about maya and the rest…i’m not interesting in them…cos i’m not buying that when i fork out my bucks…i’m buying c4d…in the past i got a printed manual which was no less heavy than it is now or at least not much difference anyways…i paid for them then don’t ever think i didn’t…it was just bundled in the price of the whole package…NOW because of price drops industry wide and the struggle to compete i have to really have a second best option which is not what you expect of a company who is so careful of quality.
given the choice most users would take a paper manual and a pdf…they are not mutually exclusive and work in unison in reality. Now i still get the choice i get the pdf…and if i want the paper version…i have to print it myself! huh or i can order the paper version…
now i’ve no doubt there are arguements for and against this…for instance maxon could argue i’m getting the full package cheaper because it doesn’t have the manuals print costs added…but i’m not sure this is true or not…and is another issue entirely.

why is it maxon always shipped printed manuals in the past but suddenly it became to expensive in the last year or so?
now ok the whole of the software industry is following this pricing model mainly because of the cost savings on printing…but it doesn’t make it right for users…price isn’t everything in a purchasing decision and pity the company that ever thinks it is.


Because C4D’s price dropped while the manual kept getting bigger.
Because each module has it’s own manual - the total weight of R8 manuals is pretty impressive.
Because a lot of users never touch the manual, but still have to pay for it.

Consider the printed manual as just an extra option, and there you go.



Well, I’ll express my opinion as to what I think is going to happen - long term:

With the XSI price drop, other makers will also have to drop prices to match, just as the game played out for After Effects and Combustion. To keep up with the others, you’ll have to.

This drop in price, as Adam T stated earlier, creates a lot of pressure and cut backs (Discreet let go a lot of the Combustion team, which were then hired by Apple to create Motion). If you look at the players: XSI doesn’t need to be a big profit center for Avid, but it is a piece of their puzzle to offer large customers. Same kind of situation with 3DS and Discreet. I’m sure Max is a much bigger part of their income as compared to Avid’s with XSI, but Discreet is part of Autodesk, and that is a fairly large empire, and is probably set pretty well. That leaves Maya and C4D. Alias just got done restructuring and going on their own, and buying Kaydara. I’m not positive of all the details of their deal, but they are probably set for a while at least. I’m sure everyone is familiar with Maxon.

With the trend in the video industry to snatch up smaller companies to offer a complete package to their customers, I think there will be some consolidation in the 3D industry, for better or worse, because of development costs going up and the decline in purchase prices. Avid has a 3D puzzle piece to go along with NLE, motion graphics, compositior, etc. Their 2 main competitors, Adobe and Apple, do not. Both of those companies hare known to buy companies to add to their software offerings (all of Apple’s production suite, minus Motion, was purchased from someone else, and Adobe bought at least Encore and their DVD app). I could see one of them buying Maxon, and the other working out a deal with Alias, if not buying them further down the line.

I’m not saying I’m necessarliy for this, as being a Mac user, I don’t want to see any more apps leave the platform (especailly Adobe, whether I use them or not). But I do think it will happen.

Sorry for the long post on my thoughts - hoping for something cool from Maxon today - like everyone else!