OT. Question 4 porting TAFA to MAC (and, maybe Ei?)

#1

Hi. This is a total off topic but Mac Reiter, developer of TAFA, a little stand alone app that provides real-time morph lip-synching and animation tools is toying with the posibility of porting his app to Macintosh, and has some questions. Maybe some of the answers can help us in EiAS?.
I have no enough knowledge to answer but gladly will copy the answers to TAFA site.
Mac Reiter said:

…Actually, yes. The way it’s playing out is that there are enough new features desired for v2.0 that it will need a ground up rewrite anyway – which means that porting difficulty is basically irrelevant. I’ve recently been playing with Qt, which is a cross-platform GUI and system library, and which has recently changed licensing models so that it won’t destroy any profits I might make. So I’m thinkin’ that TAFA 2.0 will be Qt-based, which should let me provide skinning, which lots of people seem to want – for some reason, my engineer-inspired graphics are jarring to more artistically minded people

Open questions remain, however:

1.-What object file formats are needed? I currently support LWO and OBJ, which should work almost anywhere. I was planning to add FBX support on the Windows side because that would pick up Max, Maya, and XSI. Is there anything similar on the Mac front?

2.-What scene/animation/script output file formats would I need to support? Currently I output a variety of specialized file formats, including at least one simple text format that could be parsed by scripts and used in any scriptable animation suite. FBX should also help this on the Windows side, but I’m not sure about the Mac side.

3.-What audio/video file formats would I need to support? Currently, I only support PCM encoded WAV files, because I need frame accurate scrubbing. I’m guessing that Mac support would force Quicktime to the front, at least for that platform.

4.-(For the programmers) What API can I use for extremely low latency, preferably cross platform audio playback? I must be able to randomly seek in an audio stream with high temporal precision and sub millisecond latency. I’m using DirectSound at a very low level on the Windows side. I would assume that similar things exist on the Mac side, but I haven’t seen any cross platform libraries that can work this way (unless SDL has a sound component – guess I should go look again).

Thanks for your help.

FelixCat

#2

Felix

Great post. I think Brian can answer these more technically. However, the big thing is FBX. There is also a Morph 1.0 plugin, that should be closely looked for a new Morph Target Interpolator.

  1. FBX or anything in the Animation Import Menu in EI. Motion Data File? However I don’t think developers are writing specifically for EI unless they are old time vendors. so he would want to go with something univeral.

I think there was a Mocon import plug in but I never used it so I don’t know any worth mentioning about it. It may however have some type of EI connectivity.

  1. EI has a sound import option. I believe it’s Aiff.

  2. I’m not a programmer. But as a Character Designer/RigTech/Animator, my suggestion is that he first build for Maya. Why? More than likely Maya is going to have the best CA tool import options. Once it’s in Maya then it’s best to figure out how to get it in EI. There are options to do so but at least he will have a product that sells to a broader CA market. Then he can look at EI or if there is any direct EI connectivity.

#3

Felix,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LPXWGxDl7g4

This is a really smooth looking GUI. It looks a lot like MagPie Pro. However EI has normal problems with only using a head morph in a full skin body.

Richard and Ryan and a few other EI artist really good at LipSync. As I mentioned on the “Hey Alonzo” thread, Sound Scrubbing seem to be a key feature. I can see why in this TAFA example. They have often requested Sound Scubbing. I hope they chime in to help you find a solution. I don’t have as much experience in that area as they do, but I do hope to catch up and tackle some of the production concerns.

Again I think Headgames was suppose to be a translator that could take Poser lipsync data and import it directly into EI morph there. I still think it was an arduous task as Lipsync generally is. I personally would like to learn it from the bottom up so interface doesn’t really matter to me. I mean, nowadays, you can just talk in front of a video camera and lipsynce your character with motion data.

I have only reached the point where I feel I can develop the kind of characters I am excited enough about to animate. God willing, Hopefully next year 2010, I can focus on Character Development.

To me LipSync in EI is a waste without a multi target morph tool. This is why some time about initiated a tool with Hans dubbed “Blink”. I never used it much because before I got into facial rigging I had more work to do with body rigs. Still I haven’t done any facial rig setup. There’s tons of work to still do and I hope to catch up next year.

#4

Hi, Alonzo
I had spent much time doing experiments with LipSynk in EiAS. Creating morph targets and fighting against the Morph Editor (ME wins me for 1000 to 0). To use a graphic wavesound is an awful form of doing LipSynk. Then exporting a Quicktime and opening for testing, then correct (more or less) and exporting a new Quicktime again, and again, and again.
When i find this TAFA app i was amazed with his simplicity and eficiency, but is not for MAC… well, i buy a cheap PC and do the process there and, then, export something that EiAS can understand, but EiAS don´t understand nothing and the LipSynk becomes LipSink!
I can´t blame nobody but me, i moust switch to LW or MAYA many time ago. I´m stuborn as a donkey :frowning:
Thanks for your help.
FelixCat

#5

Hi Felix,

since you are on a Mac why not give this software a try?

http://www.thirdwishsoftware.com/magpiepro_gallery.html

Regards
Stefan

#6

Hi, Stefan
Yes, I know Magpie, I tested it many years ago, Lance Evans has a sort of importer to EiAS (Headgames), and it works, sort of; but is a very convoluted process, starting with the need of 2 sets of Morph targets (obj for Magpie and Fact for Ei). And Magpie has not the flexibility of TAFA. BTW, by the price of Magpie+Headgames+EiAS you can go to LW :frowning:
I know, I moust use the right tool for each job and EiAS IS NOT for CA.
Well
I tried, Momma!

FelixCat

http://www.metanet.cl/felix.html

#7

This is very interesting thread. I do have to enter into my facial rigging study. Maybe it’s time?

As I understood, Felix and Stefan.

Though I am not fully familiar with Lance’s Headgames plugin (?).

I found any process requiring two sets of Morph targets very work and time instense.

However, Magpie was a good core product and I used it once. Felix, TAFA is a very smooth
interface, but many of the elements of the interface are available in MagPie and also in EIAS. No, it’s not integrated, or as saavy but it is “workable”.

Unfortunately, when it comes to CA in EIAS. I can’t dismiss it when in reality I use it with ease because I am very abreast with it. Unfortunately, when people become frustrated with EI…I look like " a bit out of touch" or zealot when I defend that EIAS CA is a production worthy. (sorry yo)

Analytically and Logistically speaking “only”, with customizing EI inteface, importing sound, using a Magpie Lync Chart. Marking the time line, and Using the F-curve Editor for Morph Targets, LipSync in EI is very Doable. With EP lipsync in EI would get close to par with TAFA.

Does it need sound scrubbing? YES
Does it need Multi Morph Target? YES
Does it need normal smoothing so head can be animated separately from the body? YES.
Does the Morph Target Window need an overhaul? BADLY
Is EIAS incapable of doing an Excellent Lync animation? NO.
And Keith Lango Melvin Proves it.

In reality, The same facial blending GUI for morphs can be created with Expressionist and Richard Morley has the EIAS example to prove it.

There maybe underlining technology that trumps EI like (latency sound sampling) BUT, the Facial Rig GUI is a common interface used in most film level production and maybe even better than TAFA. Basically, the programmer has made a facial rig shell with a Magpie function. You are still locked in a window and in a separate program or interface. Facial Rig GUI’s are often built directly on the character instead of monopolize the screen space with a lipsync GUI.

I avoid programming/scripting because I like to focus on things that I can apply visually and this is why I have thus far avoided facial rigs in EI “and Maya”. But other animators who are also XP savvy could do and have done the same TAFA or more customized Facial Rig GUI directly in EIAS. No, XP doesn’t evoke windows like MEL in Maya but most animator script their own face rig icons that follow the character in the scene. It’s the same as XP finger controls. I was going to do one for Cupitron in Maya but for my clients, highly effecient custom facial rigs are unnecessary, it’s not in the budget or time to use anything other than a few quick morphs.

Lastly the ReadyRigs Deformer Rig has one bonus sample at the end of the DVD where a icon controls the twist and bend in the deformation window. This same process is used for blending morphs in a facial rig.

I don’t mind to sound exactly or coldly logical but to say “it Can’t” is not something I can agree to. The variable are time and effort, but it’s not magic. It does work and works well when you get it.

#8

I’m not sure what’s going on with EI and XP from Ramjac or if they resolved their Negotiation difference, but XP should and EI should never part.

There is still so much work to do. EI should open it’s architecture up more and more to XP so that it can create pop up window and menu items. Every call, every operation and everyfunction in EI should be available to Expressionist scriptwriter and programmers. If as mad scriptwriter screws up the host app with a bad call it’s their problem. They have to reinstall.

As well all know by now, customizing through the architecture was the 'main key" misgiving to EIAS success in Hollywood. A icon control needs custom attributes. Kontrollezir again, from RamJac, helps but I haven’t used it yet.

Is there a simple YouTube video for kontrollizer? There’s a lot of people here that can do simple instructional video that would help. The onus is not all EI.

#9

Hi, Alonzo
Interesting, and informative, as ever. I agree that with a great amount of time, patiente and knowledge CA is doable in Ei. But, a big BUT, you are not an average user, or Keith Lango and others. You, for instance has spent a huge amount of time and effords to get the mastery you has in Rigging in Ei… and the process for doing LipSynk in Ei (more or less) is doable, but hardly intuitive or time efficient. Animation is a trial/error process that needs a lot of flexibility and that is not in Ei. Hardly appealing to a new user or, even, old users like us (some older than others ;D). Sadly, many great users of Ei are switching to other apps everyday.
The complexity of the workarounds is not a sales point, really. There are many others in the field of the 3D.
FelixCat

http://www.metanet.cl/felix.html

#10

hey Felix,

There are many valuable “takeaways” that can be gained from your last response. I like the part about not being your average :slight_smile: thanks. LOL.

All kidding aside, you are correct to say I have spent much time learning rigging, but it wasn’t spent bottlenecking. It was study, research or paid time. Also I can say that I have spent comparable time with Maya…and some of it was that I was just plain “stuck”.

However, that wasn’t neccessarily Maya’s fault either. :wink: I’m not such a fast learner, but when I get it…I really get it.

At this point, the best I can say is that my DVD’s are designed to take all my trial and error, study and research and condense it into a few hours. However, I know now, users on a deadline need even faster ways to learn.

I’m thinking about redoing the Deformer DVD. A “LITE” version. Regardless I acknowledge the need for speed in any future tutorials that I do.

#11

Hi Alonzo,

yes speed is an important point.
I bought your DVD last year and it helped me doing my first serious rigging project.
But as rigging is a very complex process which I am not into every day,
I guess I would have to start almost at zero when I once have to do a similar project.
That means that I have to work through your complete DVD again to find important parts…
ala…hm, I remember Alonzo talked about that point…but WHERE…;-)))
That isnt meant as critic...thats just my common problem, cause as a one man show
I have to deal with so much different aspects of graphic and 3D.
Sometimes there are month between jobs with similar specific requests.
I´m also more a slow learner…but in my case it seems to be combined with Alzheimer :cry:

best
Tom

#12

Hi, Tom
Absolutely the same problem here. To be a one man show it´s hard.
Alzheimer… Alzheimer… fortunately i can´t remember this german gentleman…
:smiley:
FelixCat

#13

Hey Tom,

I remember your purchase so I don’t have Altz :slight_smile:

Also, your critique is very welcomed. I have the same problem as well with DVDs that I buy.
So what I did is labeled each movie file with a somewhat descriptive name.

However, that doesn’t fully resolve the problem either so I do have that list of content (posted here)

Still that doesn’t fully help if it’s some small tip. If it were a pdf, you could do a search, but it’s audio and video. So often you have to watch a whole section to get what you are looking for.

Digital tutors does something interesting to address this problem. At the head of each video session they say what they are going to do. So it generally hones you into a content search.

However, I have been looking for the section on Configuring and Storing User Preferences and Memory Management Setting in ZB 2.0 on the first Digital Tutors Training DVD for 4 years now :slight_smile: I even relabeled their videos and STILL CAN’T find it. I’m use to ZB 3.2 so I don’t want to watch the OLD version…

Anyway, I will be mindful to mark content or create table of content in a text file. thanks.

#14

One other thing I want to say, and probably it’s from the perspective of anyone creating training DVD and something that Keith Lango said as well during his VTS (vid training service).

I would feel guilt ridden if I didn’t lay a strong foundation for the knowledge I am departing. It’s not independent. it’s built on other things. If I didn’t express those things this the information I presented would be sporadic or nonlinear.

However, now that the foundation is laid, I don’t have to go over it again. Meaning, any DVD that I do know I can do directly as a 1, 2, 3 because the ins and outs have already be discussed.

Next video can say, do this , do this and do this without long draw out explanation if you don’t get it I can say buy the Deformer Rig DVD :slight_smile:

#15

One more concern of mine.

It would be great to see more tutorials. It would add a lot of diversity. I think Brian is going to do one, but it would be so cool especially with someone of his background. There other people that could do great DVDs.

#16

Hi Alonzo,

I couldnt tell how to make something better in a tutorial DVD like yours. All those video tutorials are genius and helpful at one hand and at the other hand this tutorial style simply implicates problems with finding certain informations. Just normal i guess...so it really wasnt meant as critique at all.
I´m happy enough to know guys sharing their knowledge by doing tutorials :thumbsup:

@FelixCat
What are you talking about…
Who or what is Alzheimer ???
:beer:

best
Tom

#17

Hey Alonzo,

doesn’t Quicktime support Chapter Tracks? If so you could make a separate Chapter Track and embed it into the Quicktime. Then the user could click the track marker and scroll down to the desired section. I’ll see if I can dig up some info I had on how to do that.

#18

BTW… he is referring Qt, not QT
Qt is a programming environment
QT is quicktime

#19

Thanks for your positive and encouraging feedback Tom.
You are right. That DVD is what it is, making it faster isn’t necessarily making it better.
Genius. Me? LOL ! After reading your comment I went back and looked at a random video

In video “4.Model Integrity Lecture.mov” @ 7:20 full video from DVD

4.Model Integrity
I illustrate and explain a technique “Retopolize/Remesh”. I state that it was a technique that I was in the process of discovering, and exploring for modeling. Currently I use this ZBrush to retop but at that time of the video, retoping wasn’t created in ZB at the time of the video. I was doing it in Maya but it was a bit arduous with out plugins.

What I am saying is that was a bit of info included in the DVD that I can appreciate more now, and that I woudn’t want to omit. I used Nurbs models to create that mouse. It was arduous, but with retop technique that I mentioned then but didn’t exist in ZB then but I could now in not time flat.

I have 3D taught at Pratt, and have done corporate and independent training for years, as well as lead usergroups, and I am pleased with the style of the info. It’s hands on.

But you guys got me thinking. It’ really not a DVD, it’s just delivered on DVD. It’s not authored. There’s no DVD interface.

It’s something I should consider, but I thought this would be faster to market, less expensive. More importantly it would be more fail safe. No bugs or crashes.

I buy lots of DVDs, all types, even 2D animation. Anything and everything. I love the knowledge sharing aspects of the information age. But when I buy a DVD from Gnomon, or DT, Immediately copy the “videos separately” to the hard drive. I don’t like their interface and after 20 of their DVDs if I hear their thumping Logo music, airy background. I will smash the DVD :slight_smile: (after I copy it of course).

Fact is, all that is important to me with a DVD is the content, not the format or interface.
This is why I prefer a Digital Download and I will often buy them the first day. It’s just movies.

So I agree Tom, most of the limitation is in the media, but it can be an advantage as well as a disadvantage. What if someone wanted to look this comment about topolizing I made that was sidebard to the main content? It wouldn’t be authored under the main title nor should it yet it is still an advantage to know even now with new tools being developed for retoping .

#20

Correction. ZB3 Retopology was created. I just didn’t know it because ZB 3 wasn’t on the Mac. I only learn to retop in ZB a few months ago.

BTW, i like that Disney quote CJ.