Hiā¦Rebeccaā¦
Youāre right, this is not the place to express the feeling that has been out there ever since
the camera was invented, and put a lot of artist out of work, and at the same time created
new formes of art, which led up to digitalā¦itās all good, depending on how it is used.
There is yin and yang in everything, and beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
TAKE CARE
Glenn
Open Figure Drawing Workshop with Ron Eyre, Hong Ly and Rebeccak 011
SpiritDreamer
#424
Rebeccak
#425
Glenn,
I think that the OFDWs are, as you say, evolving, and I have thought a lot lately about how to structure them such that there is more emphasis on creative composition / etc. ~ how to create a new Workshop where the focus is on creating personal work.
I have reservations about this, however, for a few reasons.
Chief among them is that the original intent and purpose behind creating the OFDWs is to address the need for artists in our community to increase their observational skills ~ there are many beginners in particular who take as their starting point manga, comic books, and current digital art as their starting / reference points with respect to figurative art. As a result, I see many people making the same mistakes in their drawings repeatedly, and the OFDWs are incredibly successful to me because it puts artists back in the mindset of working from what the figure really looks like, vs. a cartoon / stylized representation of it.
While some have taken their work here in the OFDWs beyond the call of duty and created their own finished artwork with it ~ which I think is fantastic! ~ that is not actually the purpose behind these Workshops as they are now. The purpose is really to help artists increase their observational skills, and as such, yes, many pieces will closely follow the photographs ~ in a big way, thatās the point here.
What I think you and Ronnie are rightly picking up on is the fact that there needs to be another outlet here for the development of personal work / work that may use Reference as a starting, but not necessarily an ending point.
Having said that, however, I think that too often, beginners hear the oft batted about phrases, āYou must learn to draw from your imaginationā and āYou must draw from life / without Referenceā, and think that they must do that automatically! This borders to me on the ridiculous, because how can anyone draw from imagination if that imagination is not stocked from either drawing on a regular basis from life and / or from Reference?
As such, these Workshops must be taken for what they are ~ incredible opportunities for artists from everywhere to work together to improve their observational and technical skills. As I say, these Workshops can always evolve, with the potential to move towards an offspin Workshop where people create their own pieces, with or without Reference. However, I am not a fan of work in which people proudly proclaim that they have used no Reference, when the work could have greatly benefitted from the employment of such.
I hope that makes sense!
~Rebeccak
SpiritDreamer
#426
Rebeccaā¦LOL !!
I donāt disagree with any of the points you just mentioned, they all sound true and corect
to meā¦Norman Rockwell comes to mind, ā¦he couldnāt compete with the camera, so he used it to his advantage, in a big way,ā¦even Michelanglo used references, and just took them further
with his vision or imagination.
I think it is good to stir the pot once in a while, keeps the stew from getting stagnent,and
new ideas usully come from itā¦
Like I told you earlier, if I cross any line you think I shouldnāt, then by all means just tell
me to shut up and get back to work. LOL !! ā¦MRS SPIRIT DREAMER does it all the time
and I havenāt died from it ā¦YETā¦
TAKE CAREā¦TEACHER
Glenn
Rebeccak
#427
Glenn,
Are you trying to give me gray hair?
By no means should I ever come across as sounding like Iām saying anything remotely like āshut up and get back to workā ~ that wasnāt my point at all. Ah well, youāve succeeded in stirring the potā¦hehā¦
Cheers,
~Rk
eyrebrush
#429
As such, these Workshops must be taken for what they are ~ incredible opportunities for artists from everywhere to work together to improve their observational and technical skills. As I say, these Workshops can always evolve, with the potential to move towards an offspin Workshop where people create their own pieces, with or without Reference. However, I am not a fan of work in which people proudly proclaim that they have used no Reference, when the work could have greatly benefitted from the employment of such.
I hope that makes sense!
~Rebeccak[/QUOTE]
Hi, Rebecca. I hope you donāt feel that Iāve been upsetting the apple cart a bit here expressing my own personal views and observations. I am with you 100% when you talk of observational and technical skills. Your workshops provide the perfect platform for doing just this. Purely imaginative work without any reference to close observation to real life is of little value, and is certainly of no interest to me. I applaud you with your endeavours here!
Ronnie.
Rebeccak
#430
Ronnie,
No worries, ~
BTW, I forgot to mention, congrats on getting your tablet! I think itās cool that youāre willing to try something new ~ and I hope your purchase will mean that youāll be participating more often as an artist with us!
Cheers,
~Rebeccak
eyrebrush
#433
LOL! Weāll see! 
I donāt know how long it will take to arrive here, but it will take me a while to get used to it.
Cheers, Ronnie.
Zephyri
#434
Hi again allā¦ another update!
Before I do add the update, IĀd just like to say I think there is actually tremendous good in copying photos like for like. I try to use imagination in all I do, but most of what IĀve done with this piece is underpinned with some banked knowledge that comes from lots of straght copies from photos, masters and anatomy books and hundreds and hundreds of gesture drawings in my case! Its only through doing these studies that I think you get any better at being able to do the stuff straight from the top of your head. IĀve still a lot to learn, and copying from photos and other esources is certainly one of the best ways, especially to those who donĀt have live resources anywhere nearby! If it wasnĀt for these drawing workshops and the advice on offer here, IĀd be a lot further behind than I am. ItĀs only very recently that IĀve realise that in order to create something you really have to understand it, as daft as that sounds. Until now, I made the daft presumption that these people who can do it effortlessly were just uber talented, but theyĀre not, they just worked harder for it, and they have doubtless copied straight from photos too!
Rightā¦ IĀll hop off my soapbox now. I put the piece up for review on my Deviant gallery, and got some really good advice there too, so hereĀs an update. IĀve tried to make the mask somewhere between solid and ethereal, and worked some more on her body. I also changed the outstretched hand to give it more expression and to make it clear she wants the dove to land on her hand. Also got rid of the hair, as it was leading the eye out of the picture, and gave her more of an insubstantial ĀcrestĀ which fits more with the whole bird spirit idea, and pulled the brighter colours (which IĀm hoping pull the viewer immediately to her head) down into the wings, to give the impression that the hair crest and wings are all part of the same etheral substance. Iām toying with the idea of maybe putting in a couple more larger doves, as Iām taken with the idea of them flapping around her, but donāt know whether this will busy up the composition too much. Iāve not decided whether to put her eye in yet eitherā¦ so much to do! :argh: Thoughts on progress are muchly appreciated.
Oh, and Ron, once you get used to it, you should love the tabletā¦ I bought the exact same one just after Christmas, and havenāt looked back. It comes with a couple of different textured nibs too, so you can have it feel more like a pencil, and put paper over the tablet surface too. enthuses greatly about wacom tablets
Rebeccak
#435
Originally posted by Zepyhri: IĀd just like to say I think there is actually tremendous good in copying photos like for like. I try to use imagination in all I do, but most of what IĀve done with this piece is underpinned with some banked knowledge that comes from lots of straght copies from photos, masters and anatomy books and hundreds and hundreds of gesture drawings in my case! Its only through doing these studies that I think you get any better at being able to do the stuff straight from the top of your head. IĀve still a lot to learn, and copying from photos and other esources is certainly one of the best ways, especially to those who donĀt have live resources anywhere nearby! If it wasnĀt for these drawing workshops and the advice on offer here, IĀd be a lot further behind than I am. ItĀs only very recently that IĀve realise that in order to create something you really have to understand it, as daft as that sounds. Until now, I made the daft presumption that these people who can do it effortlessly were just uber talented, but theyĀre not, they just worked harder for it, and they have doubtless copied straight from photos too!
Hear hear! Itās also the case that many people canāt afford live Workshops. Heck, I canāt! I cannot dish out the $20-25 per session that just one Workshop costs ~ especially not with the amount of drawing and painting practice that is required to acquire and maintain oneās skill level. I copied master drawings for years for just this reason ~ outside of a school environment, I did not have access to live models, and though I am thankful for having had the luxury of working from wonderful live models in school, once I graduated, I actually found it tremendously helpful to work from Master Works instead ~ and this was before I was aware of the tremendous online art communities that exist! So, I certainly count this and similar Workshops as an advance for all artists, who no longer have to labor alone ~ and unnoticed ~ but rather have the opportunity not only to practice their skills far into the future, for free, but also have the chance to get recognition and to interact with artists from everywhere ~ to me, thereās nothing that you can lose in seizing such an opportunity!
Oh, and while I only managed to sneak a tiny look at your work, Zepyhri, I did notice that it looks fantastic! 
Cheers,
~Rebeccak
Rebeccak
#436
mystikaal,
My apologies, Iāve only just now seen your post! Welcome aboard, and Iām thrilled that seeing Zephyriās work has brought you on board! I hope you will contribute your artwork as well, and hope that you find the Anatomy Forum useful.
Cheers,
~Rebeccak
SpiritDreamer
#437
Zepyhri ā¦WOW !!
This is turning into one of the most BEAUTIFUL BEAUTIFUL paintings that I have ever seen
seriously.
Has the colors of a sacred bird in New Guine or one of those places.
Itās called COCK OF THE ROCKā¦see if you can find a picture of one. It came to mind, the
minute I saw your painting this morning. Might help you in some way to see one.
What you did with the hand is great,ā¦gives it that uplift motion, almost like a birds wing
in flightā¦nice touchā¦love that glass like beak alsoā¦BEAUTIFULā¦
I like your idea for another big birdā¦maybe flying up towards her, from the lower left section
or corner of the painting ā¦might add to motion, and lead veiwer back into painting, and up
to main figureā¦if done right, it will add to paintings compositionā¦open V shape, leads the
eye upward ā¦shape of birds wings in flightā¦might use to your advantage with bird in
lower left cornerā¦just a thought, that might help you, if you go for more birds.
Really brightend up my day, just seeing this painting ā¦THANK YOU ā¦
TAKE CARE
Glenn
Rebeccaā¦The stew is starting to smell pretty good to me, in fact it smells so good, that
itās makeing me hungryā¦stir every half hour, and let simmerā¦LOLā¦
TAKE CARE and
Glenn
Zephyri
#438
Thank you for the great feedback on this piece, Glenn, your suggestions do nothing but improve the piece!
Another small update, small due to the fact I was savaged by a persian cat, which embedded both its teeth and claws in my right wrist, after it approached me for a fuss. Me being the cat lover, and at a loss as to what else to do, had to endure 30 seconds of wild cat spitting, biting and clawing until it let go and ran off leaving rather nasty claw ad teeth punctures all over my arm. And now my hand has somewhat seized up. :argh:
Stillā¦ managed to implement a few more changed, mostly in the positioning of doves and the like. Iām hoping this completes the composition issues, and Iāve been playing around with floating feathers on the woman, only to decide none of them worked.
SpiritDreamer
#439
Hi ā¦Zepyhriā¦
You better get yourself to a doctor ā¦right awayā¦for those punture woundsā¦
Cats have a little grove on the backside of each fangā¦grove runs the whole
length of each fangā¦each grove is packed full of bateriaā¦like getting
bit by a poisonious snake almostā¦bacteria gets trapped in the punture.
Hand and arm will swellā¦bacteria will grow, and you will get a red line
going up your arm in a couple or three daysā¦BLOOD POISONINGā¦very serious stuff.
Goes to your heart, and can be fatalā¦
I am speaking from experience hereā¦myself, my brother, and my sister inlaw, were
all bitten by his cat at the same time ā¦cat went crazey over a puppy I had in my arms,
protecting her kittens I guess. ANYWAY ā¦we all ended up in the hospital a few days
later, with BLOOD POISONINGā¦Just thought I WOULD WARN YOUā¦ you said your hand
was swellingā¦thatās the start of the infectionā¦a simple shot of anti biotics or penacillin
wll take care of it, in most casesā¦
I hope I am not scareing you too much, ā¦but if the swelling continues, donāt wait for
the red line to appear, like I didā¦being stuborn as I am LOL!!
I will comment on your painting, when you tell me you went to the doctorā¦does that
sound fairā¦LOL!!
TAKE CARE
Glenn
Zephyri
#440
Aw, thank you for the concern, Glennā¦ very much appreciated, and the first thing I did when I got in was ring the local health service hotline for advice, and went to see the doctor yesterday to get a tetanus jab and have it looked at. The swelling is better this morning, so I think it was just a short term reaction, but Iāll certainly keep an eye on it!
Rebeccak
#441
Zepyhri,
Wow, what a beautiful update! And Iām so sorry to hear that youāre injuredā¦cats are so odd sometimes! :rolleyes: Hard to know what sets them off, I guess.
Iām really enjoying the soft colors in your piece, and canāt wait to see your next update! :applause:
Cheers,
~Rebeccak
SpiritDreamer
#442
Hi ā¦Zepyhriā¦
Great to hear your bites arenāt infectedā¦hope you gave the cat a good slap at least.
maybe notā¦MIGHT LEAD TO MORE BITES ā¦LOL!!
Your stil working on doves I think, so I wonāt say to much about them, other thanā¦donāt
end up making them compete for atention with the main figureā¦one of the doves should be
primaryā¦the others secondaryā¦made so with shadows ect. I think the smaller one by her
hand is the primary dove, and creates the actionā¦I think I like itās original gesture better,
but maybe thatās just because it was more finished looking. I donāt think you need the dove
you added right behind that oneā¦killes the openness in that area, and competes too much
with the first doveā¦and also makes the composition to obviousā¦you want painting to feel
uncontrived and have a natural open flow, with an element of surprise and mystery with the placement of your directional elements.
Alsoā¦donāt loose the richness of your shadow areas in cloudsā¦I notice, your starting to
get a whiteād out look in last versionā¦looseing that rich orange and purple violet appeal
of the previous versionā¦remember shadow adds to mystery and dramaā¦depth and
beautyā¦I HOPE you donāt think iām being too critical or nit picky at this point.
Just trying to be of some help, in this truly BEAUTIFUL PAINTING you are creating, and
like all advice, take it , or leave itā¦only you know what is best for your vision in the
endā¦
TAKE CARE
Glenn
Zephyri
#443
Woooā¦ I finished itā¦wellā¦ for now. I might go back and tinker a bit in a couple of days. I donāt know whether Iāll be cutting it fine for Aphrodisia :argh: but never mind, the exercise in itself is certainly worth it. All hail the anatomy workshop!
Hereās the finished piece. Glad you mentioned the cloud shadows, Glenn, definitely better with them!:
Colours of the Wind
And some close ups:
Iāve also posted it in the finished 2d gallery too, with a story to go with it: Link . Thanks once again for everything guys! :applause: Now to go and write up a step by step! 