NOW OPEN!!! Open Figure Drawing Workshop with Hong Ly and Rebecca Kimmel 001

#401

I have to agree it is probably my favorite drawing medium. You really have to try it.
Not only are the marks beautifull and delicate but they tarnish over time, which looks outstanding.

Most jewery stores sell silver that can fit into a .9mm mechanical pencil. That is what i use and I have had the same silver lead since 1999 and have barely used any of it (although I use it all the time). On that note you do have to prep your paper, I prefer reeves bfk (but any heavier paper will do), usualy I lay 1 thin coat of gesso on the paper with a litttle marble dust mixed in.

If you can not find it (the silver) and are interested, I will happily send you some of mine (I bought way too much years ago). email me your address. You will have to buy your own mechanical pencil though.
Please no one else ask as I am not the happy silver dispensing man. I dont mind helping a couple people out, but you guys that live in europe and usa should have no problem finding thin silver wire.

Shaun

#402

Rebecca, if I’m reading you right, this is basically what I did for the rest of the body. I sketch as linework the shapes and some of the details, paint a base colour totally opaque on top of this (concentrating on the outline) then move my sketch layer above it with 50% transparency, so I can ignore it or use it depending if it helps (working underneath on the paint layer).

Thanks for the encouragement :slight_smile:

Lynna : thank you :slight_smile:

Spirit Dreamer : thank you for the compliment :slight_smile: I’m working in Photoshop not Painter, so no custom brushes for me, but thank you for thinking of it.

Re. your post about SOUL in a painting - this has always been the most difficult part for me. With enough patience and a willingness to redo things ad nauseam, I could make a reasonable copy of the photo, I think… but you’re absolutely right that this isn’t what would make it a good painting. Mine always turn out looking kind of… emotionless. It strikes me that this is the hardest part of a drawing, i.e. giving it some kind of impact or whatever it takes to make the viewer emotionally involved. (like zhuzhu’s sketches, Squibbit’s first one and a few others, where your first reaction on seeing it is much more of a gut reaction ‘Oooooh! Wow!!’ than a cerebral ‘Hmm, nice lines, anatomy excellent…’ ) And also something which I’m not sure can be learned… maybe it’s where talent comes into it more than practice, and either you’ve got it or you haven’t.

Does anyone know what I’m talking about, or have I explained it really badly…? Any hints on how to try and achieve this?

Back to work on her face for me :slight_smile:

Amy

#403

well, i tried another one today, i have to work on the arms, head, hand and feet.

10p14z66tm7eo.jpg457x651

#404

I think that the emotional response everybody is speaking of is entirely personal and very objective thing. Certain individuals are presupposed to having an emotional reaction in any number of different ways to many different pieces. What some may consider an emotional high point might be just another mark or form to another.

I firmly believe that a good drawing that combines the concepts of solid drawing, good line qualtiy, strong forms, strong composition and the understanding of light. Strong masterfully completed drawings seem to elicit a strong emotional response from the majority of the people viewing it. Modern (1912-1925 for ex.), abstract and expressionistic art are many times hit and miss. They depend on the viewers state of mind. For exampe my friend loves Pollock, however, I do not. I love Duchamp, he does not. However we both love Frued and Anthony Ryder.

   Take a look at the works on this website. 
   
   -http://www.tonyryder.com

While looking at his drawings you will notice that many times there is some sort of emotional connection. Either a “WOW!” how did he do that or “ahhh!” that is beautifull. I have not met many people that are not emotionaly connected to this man’s work. Not that they do not exist, I am sure they do, they just seem to be far and few between.

   So what is it about his work that comands such strong emotions, lets take a quick look.
   [http://www.tonyryder.com/d-twilight.htm](http://www.tonyryder.com/d-twilight.htm)

This picture, first of all, is in my opinion perfection. Highly idealized human form, beautifull line qaulity and unparalleled tonal rendering. But what more precisly is the catalyst for my emotional draw. I beleive it is in the lighting. A very phsyical attribute (with very precise properties) which he has managed to render in a very ethereal way. He has developed a very romantic lighting scheme in this picture, a delicateness and beauty that he has very carefully rendered. he would not have been able to accomplish this however if he did not have a masters level of understanding in respect to drawing.

   In a nut shell:

learn to draw. become a skilled draughtsman ( forget for right now the contemporary ways, you can allways pick that up later) and you too will be able to bring forth that emotional connection. learn to understand line, form and light. and you too will be able to create emotional masterpieces.

   Shaun
   
   Hope that helps and is not too confusing. Sorry about my bad grammar and spelling.
#405

Thank rebeccak :thumbsup:

This is the new work:)

Please point out

Thank:)

10p18yt1yht6o.jpg590x688

#406

weilong,

 Did you see [[b]this[/b]](http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=2560284&postcount=372)? :)

on [b][this page](http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=266229&page=25&pp=15)[color=white],[/b][/color] [b]post #372[/b][b].

[/b][color=white]I would make the same suggestion for your new piece. :slight_smile:
[/color]
~Rebeccak

#407

Thanks Stipick, that’s given me a lot to think about. Awesome drawings on that site.

I totally accept that good draughtsmanship is essential… and that at least is something that can improve with practice and good teaching. I can’t help feeling that as Spirit Dreamer said, there is something more than that though… as he said, a way of putting more of yourself into the picture. This would explain some of the pictures which are not technically perfect but still have that ‘x-factor’. I dunno, it’s giving me a bit of a headache now.:banghead:

I suppose I mean that you could be the best draughtsman in the world, and produce paintings indistinguishable from photos, but if the… ‘something’… is missing they still won’t get that response from the viewer. In Tony Ryder’s case I agree that it is a lot to do with the lighting, which is probably something added/enhanced by him rather than directly copied from what’s in front of him. All I can do is copy. :sad:

Sorry if I’ve confused anyone or am missing the point.

#408

Liking the new stuff from everyone. and thanks for the comments zephyri. Rebecca was right to say i got bogged down in colour. even though i did like some elements it does sort of look a bit of a mess where I was concentrating more on colour than value. Hopefully this tonal piece is better.

#409

Stipick_S / Shaun,

Thanks your your really elegant thoughts on this! Along with Spirit Dreamer’s thoughts on emotion in art, I think that this is a really valuable contribution to the dialogue about art and aesthetics that naturally comes into play when artists come together to (literally) draw from the same source.

 My two cents are these: Drawing and Painting, particularly [i][b]Traditional [/b][/i]Drawing and Painting, are emotional experiences in and of themselves.

I used to talk with a friend in school, and she said something that surprised me in its honesty but is really true ~ drawing from a live model can sometimes be such an emotional experience that you almost want to cry.

Now, this will probably sound lame and touchy~feely to some, but there is just a sense of profundity one encounters when drawing from a live model that doesn’t happen with your everyday experiences. It is somewhat similar to the feeling you have in a good movie where there is an emotional moment and the music swells and you feel the film’s impact and message. You get it. It’s that kind of high that has kept artists for centuries coming back to figure drawing, again and again and again. And looking at a model for drawing purposes is not sexual. Drawing the human form is extremely challenging, and when one looks at a model and is asked to represent human form in all of its complexity and beauty, it is a complex stimulus that I don’t really understand but definitely react to.

Having said that, drawing from photographs such as we are, in utter frankness, is not the same thing. There is the additional factor of the digital medium, which has its advantages and its disadvantages.

I will say, and others may certainly disagree, that working digitally is never an emotional experience for me. Painting digitally for me is more chore than joy, though in perfect honesty, I am a much better digital than traditional painter on some levels. I can draw digitally and LOVE the freedom which it affords me ~ but I am in no way emotionally connected to the Wacom pen, CPU or screen as tools.

We are human beings, and TOUCH and a tactile sense are part of our being human. The digital medium keeps us one step removed from that human sensibility. In truth, I sometimes liken our state to that of a Stephen Hawking ~ unable to communicate without a machine.

We sometimes, in this digital age, underrate our human sensibilities and capabilities. I do not want to think about my neural processing as I am drawing ~ as a TD is asked to think about the complexities of Maya on a project. What humans are capable of doing just with their arms, hand, and brain is astounding on the neural level, but for those of us who are not disabled, like Stephen Hawking, we sometimes underrate what we are able to do with just a piece of compressed charcoal and paper.

Look at zhuzhu’s most recent traditional piece. It is the best work I have seen of his so far.

 That is my rant for today. :)

In short, I think that Traditional (2D) art is still unmatched in emotional force by Digital (2D) art. I think that as more Traditional artists take to the Digital medium, things will improve. But I see a lot of plastic looking art in the world that has no more emotional impact for me than seeing a Barbie doll. That is just my thought.

 :)
 
 ~Rebeccak
#410

right on amy_517!!! That is why I began my rant with “what is emotional is entirely objective.” What I believe is not allways going to be what the next person believes and i think that is awesome. You should like what you want to and dislike what you want, I would support a persons likes and dislikes, whether I agreed or disagreed with them.

I am a very scientific person and come from a scientific family. To me emotions are chemical reactions and eletrical impulses triggered by various stimulae. It makes sense to me that one person can influence anothers emotions through the way they handle the physical attributes of their drawing , in the case of Ryder he uses strong compostition and light to create a very stimulating mood. However, to somebody else emotions may be a very spiritual experience. Which i think is great and if that perosn is fufilled by that, then i support that theory as well. In the end it does not matter how we experience emotions, as long as we do.

food for thought- our brain as far as we know, is the only matter in the universe which is trying to understand itself. How amazing is that!

#411

Whew!

Having said what I did, I frankly wish to add that some of the work I am seeing here, as well as the thoughts being posted, gives me hope for the Digital Medium.

I think that as folks get unenamoured of the tools and start to push beyond them to real expression ~ and by expression I don’t mean crazy, wonky, unskilled drawings / paintings, but rather work which is imbued with emotion and executed with skill ~ then Digital Work will begin, for me, to have the spark of life which I think is often missing.

I think zhuzhu, Spirit Dreamer, and others are great examples of this ~ I can see both challenging the medium, and trying to get the tools to work for them instead of what many of us do, which is to be slave to the tool and the myriad options of the various software packages we are using.

The point of art is not to copy, it is to express something of ourselves that connects with other people. If you feel that your art is not doing that, then it is a matter of reaching deeper and trying to come up with that thing that matters to you about a drawing or painting which you wish to share with others.

I guess this is another two cents, for a total of four cents! :slight_smile:

~Rebeccak

#412

due to inflation rebecca’s 4 cents just went up to 6 cents… =)

okay time for me to post someting on this thread. I promise to by the end of tonight.

shaun

#413

I think this is absolutely right. I need to think a lot more about my own emotional response to what I’m drawing, in parallel with seeing it as a set of shapes and colours on a surface… cos if I don’t really feel anything about it myself, it’s not surprising that no-one else does.

Thanks for all the advice, it’s been a good discussion.

#414

Ok, enough ‘philosophical’ poo from me. :slight_smile:

Time for reviews!

You guys have really impressed me with your dedication to this thread. I don’t think that I am imagining that the quality of everyone’s work is going up as a result of everyone’s enthusiastic participation. So for those of you who have worked so hard here, thank you. :slight_smile:

yAdam,

Much better. As you can see, your vision and understanding of the figurative ‘puzzle’ as such is much better when you eliminate that pesky factor, Color. I think you will be able to take this piece much further now that you have reduced the image to grayscale. Keep building your lights and darks, and constantly do the equivalent of an artist ‘stepping back’ from the ‘canvas’, and reduce the zoom on your piece so that you can see this as a whole (Ctrl + “-”) and I think that you will begin to see the overall picture much better in terms of values.

jinnseng,

I’m thrilled to see you here after your highly successful run in the Lesson 003 thread! Beautiful start so far, and you know the drill ~ keep working those darks and lights, and start to put in edge contrast ~ some edges which are further away you will want to soften, while some edges which are closer to the viewer you will want to sharpen.

Just keep going with this ~ I would reduce the buttocks in size, extend and shape the arms and hands a bit, and make sure that you establish where the neck and head are in relation to the body by drawing (on a separate layer) the neck and head ~ the head [b]without hair.

[/b]dbclemons,

Good progress so far, but I think that the figure lacks a bit of vitality. I think if you start to add more contrast by darkening the background, and try different brushstrokes on the figure and not use the same all over, you will start to get more of a sense of life to the figure, though your rendering job is quite solid.

I might even suggest saving this version, saving a flattened copy, and trying a more gestural, brushstrokey version over top ~ just as an experiment. I would definitely be interested in your results!

SpiritDreamer,

Thanks for these excellent thoughts. You have really become a valuable member of this community, and I really appreciate all of your thoughtful contributions!

zhuzhu,

Bravo! This is frankly, the best work I have seen of yours so far. Your beautiful linework and sensitively rendered features are lovely, and I would love to see more work of yours done in this style.

I frankly like this drawing MUCH more than even your famous watercolor pieces ~ this drawing is highly expressive and very beautiful. :slight_smile:

Zepyhiri,

Excellent work so far! Regarding the posting of this in the Finished 2D section, absolutely. So long as people don’t just use the Reference here and run away without contributing anything to this thread, then I am fine with posting work done from the Reference provided on this thread this elsewhere as well.

One thing for me which is not helping the picture yet is the background. I think what is lacking right now is a Color Climate ~ Is the image to be warm, or cool? A subtle play of the two? Right now it is unclear what the Color/Value relationship of the background to the foreground is. There are also some perspective problems with the architectural features that would need to be clarified.

However, the figure is beautifully rendered so far, and I love the direction you are taking. So I would just suggest leaving the figure for a bit and trying to integrate the background. I really look forward to your results! :slight_smile:

Danielh68,

Really commendable effort for a relatively short period of time! Might I recommend something? Approach this piece less as an Illustration, and more of a Painting. I think that you will go further with this mentality. Quite often, for those of us with a commercial persuasion (I was trained as an Illustrator, so I know) it is too easy for us to get to a certain point, become satisfied, and quickly finish it off in an Illustrative way so that we are ‘done’ with a piece. But I happen to know that you are a finearty guy under there, so I would love to see where you can go with this piece if you approach it in a different way.

Inept,

Welcome to the forum! Right now, I would say that the head is too big for the body. What I would recommend is to leave your painting for the time being, and go back and refine your drawing to the point where it feels that things are resolved, and proportional. I like the drawing style you are using, but I think you need to go back and check your measurements against the photograph to see where there are problems. I look forward to seeing your new drawing! :slight_smile:

Shaun,

Thank you for your thoughts, and for the silverpoint recommendation! I did not know anyone used this anymore!

An excellent draughtsman to look at for Silverpoint drawings is Filippino Lippi. I have a book of his Silverpoint drawings which I treasure. It’s called The Drawings of Filippino Lippi and His Circle. I bought it from the National Gallery of Art in Washington, DC.

And thank you for the excellent link! :)

Llynna,

Wow, you are doing a great job on this! I think now that you have the approach down pat, you are really feeling confident, and it shows in this new sketch! Great work, and let’s see where it goes! :slight_smile:

*Whew*! That was a mouthful. You guys are doing excellent work! Keep it up!!! :thumbsup:

~Rebeccak
#415

a very inspiring link to metalpoint examples…

 [http://silverpointweb.com/masters.html](http://silverpointweb.com/masters.html)
 

and some technical links on the subject
[http://silverpointweb.com/drawingwork.html](http://silverpointweb.com/drawingwork.html)
[http://silverpointweb.com/workshop.html](http://silverpointweb.com/workshop.html)

Edit:  I lied...a little more spam.

Check this guy out!!! He is amazing.
he used gold point with photoreal results!!!
http://www.artincontext.org/artist/m/dennis_j_martin/images.htm

rebecca: my opposing curve sketches were all done using silverpoint. =)

ok no more spam from me, the next post will be an actual picture!!
sorry rebecca.

 Shaun
#416

Thanks for the links Stipick, I’d often seen this type of work and had no idea how it was done. Well beyond me to try and emulate, but inspiring all the same :slight_smile:

#417

Silverpiont looks like graphite and ballpoint pens. Nice. Surprisingly I have never heard of silverpoint until yesterday.

Thanks

#418

Hi Amy

Sorry I gave you a headache.
I singled you out because I saw something in your first piece that had that “X” factor about it, that you mentioned earlier. (to me anyway)
And I just wanted you not to lose it in the improved version.
So don’t even doubt your talent.
Just be yourself and what you have in you will find its own way out.
And will show up in your paintings whether you like it or not.
(Just like sweat happens when you work hard.)

Take Care
Glenn

#419

Wow Rebecca!!
I think you just made Burne Hogarth roll over in his grave and smile!:slight_smile:
Great and inspiring words.
Made my day.
Take care
Glenn

#420

Shaun,

Great links! The stuff about Silverpoint is really inspiring ~ I had not known it was still in use, so that is great! :slight_smile:

Spirit Dreamer,

Aw shucks, thank you! :slight_smile: Thanks again for all of your valuable contributions! :slight_smile:

~Rebeccak