Next GAC comp

#1

I was thinking if there would be any interest in going a new route and doing just the texturing/skinning process. Sorta like how the Quake model is the same and then people just skin it to make it look different.
We could all use the same base model and make a theme around that. Example: Make the model look like a homeless guy. You can add small props, but the core of the work would be done already.
It would help eleviate the modeling phase and get people up and running faster. It wouldn’t even have to be as long of a deadline.

Just an idea… thoughts?

#2

Nice idea, but I will add also modeling. Becouse learning “how model the character?” is never enough. Especially for guys like me, who make them less then 5. It could gives some advices and some experience especially with part of hands and faces. And also rigging … it always makes me a headache. My proposition is 1200 - 1500 tri + 512x512 & 256x256. Character for UT or Q3.
Some other ideas??

#3

I think it’s a nice idea, that may open up the competition to a larger audience :slight_smile:

#4

Bentllama already said that he was working on the rules and layout for the next GAC, so we all know its in good hands. As far as making the next competition just for texturing, I don’t think many people will go for the Idea, as Modeling has always been par of the GAC’s and has been so for a good reason
people like it that way. But I don’t see the harm in making a Mini Challenge, much like the “Make a pair of Hands” competition that we had a few weeks ago, were people have to try their best at texturing a model that is premade and available for download

#5

i agree - a texturing mini-challenge would be really fun, especially if the model was by one of the pros on the board here.

#6

I think that peope are just over looking the fact that so much of the characters look comes from just the texturing of it. People spend so much time in modeling phase, they lose interest or just do a rush job of texturing to make the deadline.

In regards to Bent “taking care of the next comp”… uh I’m really not trying to sound like a jackass here, but I’m not holding my breath. There are lots of promises made of judging, plugs appearing on the front page, models being finsihed…etc.

#7

Well in terms of the modelling communities interest this would make a better mini-challenge. However I’m more inclined to do this because it takes less time (not that time is any matter to me now I’m just an unemployed graduate). I’m actually quite looking forward to the next modelling (and more) challenge, but I’ve always thought a texturing challenge would be well wicked too. I’d totally like this to go ahead, probably as a mini-challenge, and regarding your comment, Neil:
“I think that peope are just over looking the fact that so much of the characters look comes from just the texturing of it. People spend so much time in modeling phase, they lose interest or just do a rush job of texturing to make the deadline.”

I think the advantage of this as a mini-challenge is that it says “this is just one aspect of our challenges, but it’s something alot of us can work on”. It’ll help the less experienced work out how much of your detail needs to be in the texture, and maybe they can apply that to their modelling (etc) challenges.

Another interesting thing is that we haven’t had an animating challenge (to my knowledge). Where we take the character all the way to a walk cycle. This makes the task bigger so maybe it’s a challenge for a team of two, or two seperate challenges. Or a future mini-challenge based on the textured models. Food for thought.

#8

Just to throw in my two cents, I hate texturing for low poly, the only reason I enter these challenges is to practice my low poly modeling. A lot of us modelers that are working on next-gen platforms don’t have to be texture artists, we’re strictly high/low-poly modelers, so…I dunno, I don’t think it’s wise to eliminate the modeling side completely.

I think a team challenge would be fun…one person could model, one could texture.

-K.

#9

thanks for the vote of confidence Neil.

you and I have butted heads in the past but that does not open a window for public conjecture. as far as my personal work not getting top priority in my life, excuse me, as I was working on a 6+ million unit seller…

back to the challenge…

getting sponsorship is more difficult than it seems, and if I cannot get a few secured this week, look for the contest to be open again and remain “unofficial”. I am working hard for all of you to try and grow this contest for you.

in the short interim, perhaps a mini texutring contest is appropriate. I do like your idea of texturing, Neil. it is an often overlooked attribute these days with everyone focusing on polycount. however, a texturing only challenge does leave the majority of modelers out of the mix…we cannot segregate the community like that…

i do like KWAK’s idea of a joint challenge, one person models and the other surfaces the character or vehicle or whatever…

anyway, I will try to keep you guys updated this week as to the outcome of the game art challenge…although there is mothing preventing you from entering hi-res game art in the MASTER AND SLAVE CHALLENGE. that is one challenge with some killer prizes and killer competition.

thanks.

#10

check out the Animation forum here at CGtalk where Sheep Factory regularily runs unofficial animation challenges…

#11

Thanks for the update Bent,

we’re probably better off waiting to start another GAC challenge until the Master+Servant Challenge is over, since most people are gonna be spending their time on that.

Perhaps a mini-challenge is the way to go.

cheers,
-K.

#12

I mean i see your point about modeling cutting off some modelers, but I’m just trying to think of some way to spark more interest and seeing more pieces FINISHED. Last competition started with a bunch and I think ONLY 2 finished?!

Seems like most of them die off during the modeling phase. If a base mesh was given for everyone to use, you could still make changes to it (if desired) or just continue forward with it. I mean it wouldn’t be the most amazing mesh ever seen by human eyes, it would just be basic and a good starting point to get on your feet and get going. Seems like lots of beginners get frustrated and stop when everyone starts being picky about edge loops and quads and face counts.

Kwak: all the previous competitions have involved texturing and skinning and you’ve done a great job! the texturing hasn’t prevented you before, why would it prevent you now?

bent: Well it’s become an on-going routine, sorry to say. But no I’m not “bashing” you, I understand your work schedule, I’m just not scared to point out the obvious either. I appreciate the fact that you’re trying to make this bigger and better, but I fear that it will still suffer the same demise if we don’t try to think differently. Possibly not if there is a prize (which seems to be what many are asking for). I just want to get people talking and contributing to what it is that they want changed inorder to more willingly participate; as appose to just sitting and waiting for 1 idea and then just going with it.

#13

Texturing is usually the biggest roadblock to me finishing, modeling is easy, fun, and most importantly fast; but texturing is a lot more time consuming and involved, I just thought it would be cool to team up with somebody who really enjoys texturing and do a collab. (similar to the pipeline we use at work).

cheers,

-K.

#14

Adam’s $0.02:

Since joining CGTalk, most if not all of the UGACs have been limited by the subject, and almost EXCLUSIVELY that subject has been a character. One recent comp was for vehicles, but I believe the rest were all characters.

I think it would be cool if we changed the UGACs in general to be…more thematic I guess? For example, instead of having everybody compete to see who can create the coolest hero, or who can create the hottest uber-sword-babe with elf ears, maybe we could leave it slightly more open-ended. The UGAC would start with a post describing a fictional game, and then all of the game art forum frequenters could decide to contribute the thing that they want to practice most - a level layout, NPC designs, a hero character, props, environment concepts, etc. It does not force anyone to work on something they need to practice; however, it does not restrict anyone from working on something they need to practice either. Also, the fictional “game” that the art would belong to should be very loosely defined -for example, it would not be restricted to action, FPS, RTS, etc. In case this is somehow unclear, here is a short example:

Game Title: The Red Frontier
Game Description: In 2066 the X-Prize competition expands to support independent planetary colonization, beginning with Mars. Manifest Destiny and the Wild West are reborn on the Red Planet. Different ethnicities and social groups fight for dominance and form shaky alliances as they vie for control of the Earth’s closest neighbor.

So some of the members love to do FPS level design and want that for their portfolio - so they could talk to each other and work out some different areas of the planet in their interpretation of the game (an action FPS perhaps). Other members who want to do RTS units for their portfolio might devise a more strategy-themed version of the game, and design, model and texture 4-5 units for the different enclaves or social groups.

INHERENT AWESOMENESS TO THIS APPROACH:
Lots of teamwork, more community feedback and connectivity, and a better end result for people’s portfolio, since they really are designing something for a game, fictional though it may be.

INHERENT PROBLEMS WITH THIS APPROACH:
Basically, just judging. It’d be REALLY hard. Part and parcel to that is the requirements - it’d be a real pain in the ass to develop all the diff. rules about how many polys can be used, etc etc. However, imo, losing that part of the competition might not be THAT big a loss - most people on the forums know a good ballpark figure anyways, and if somebody turns in a 50,000 poly RTS wireframe, well, that should affect the way they are judged.

Shit that is more like $2 :stuck_out_tongue:

#15

Hey Adam,
I think you have a good idea going here
The only flaw as you said, would be the judging part of the competition
With the contest as open as to the point of different genres would just not work. Now, what we can do is limit the subject and genre and then let people be free to design to their wishes on what they think a model/landscape in the game should look like. To better explain how I am describing things, from what the contestants can do with the models to how the material will be judged, I am going to break down the different parts, to what I think a Hypothetical challenge should be like:

As I said before the challenge should have a chosen gene to keep all entries on the same level, so for this Hypothetical challenge I choose the example to be a TBS (Like the beloved GBA game advance wars). Now, there are 3 subjects that an contestant can choose from for creating their work for the GAC, they can enter as many entries in any/all the categories, and will be judged/critiqued on all their works, but only their highest scoring piece of work will have its score posted against others for the Challenge’s Prizes’ (more on judging in a sec.). The three Categories that they can create pieces for are low-poly, high-poly, and Landscape/buildings

 [left](NOTE: Each challenge will have different categories, depending on the genre)

[/left]

The Category’s rules (for this Hypothetical challenge) break down as the following:

    [b]     In the Low-poly category, the contestants’ rules are as follows: [/b]
         -They may model any military vehicle or soldier.
          -Model must be under 400polys.
          -Must be textured, using nothing bigger than a single 512 texture map.
          -Extra Points for creativity, Model being Rigged, Texture map being used to its fullest.
      
    [b]     In the High-poly category, the contestants’ rules are as follows: [/b]
         -They may model any military vehicle or soldier.
          -Model must be no less than 1000polys, and no greater than 3000polys.
          -Must be textured, allowed to use (1)1024x1024 for the body & (2) 512x512 for head and weapons.
          -Extra Points for creativity, Model being Rigged, Texture map being used to its fullest.
      
    [b]     In the Landscape/buildings category, the contestants’ rules are as follows: [/b]
         -They may model Landscape (eg. Trees, mountains, and other terrain types) or Buildings (military or civilians).
          -Model for Trees/ other foliage must be under 500polys, and use a single 512 texture map.
          -Model for landscape must be under 1000polys, and use up to a single 1024x1024 texture map.
          -Model for buildings must be under 3000polys, and use up to a single 1024x1024 texture map.
          -Extra Points for creativity, Texture map being used to its fullest.

     [b]    The Judging is as follows:[/b]

     [b]    The point system for judging is:[/b]
         -(1-8) points for quality of Model
         -(1-8) points for quality of the texture(s)
     [b]
      -Points for each extra: [/b]
         -- (4) Points for Creativity 
         -- (3) Points for Model being Rigged
         -- (5) Points for Texture map being used to its fullest

      [b]    The Prizes are as follows:[/b]

     [b]    Prizes will be awarded for:[/b]
         -Best Low-poly model
         -Best High-poly model
         -Best Landscape
         -Best Building
         -Best Overall Contestant (who posted the most quality work)

As I said above, a contestant can enter as many categories as they like, but in the end, only their best entree can win (therefore, someone can not win in more than one category) The only way in which a contestant can win 2 categories is if he/she wins in one of the main categories and also as “Best Overall Contestant”.

         What does everyone think? Make any Since? Too complicated?

Just my $0.02, take it for what its worth
:smiley:

#16

To me, that seems like 3 comps at once? I dunno. Maybe I should sum up/clarify my original post, or what I was intending to do anyways:

The UGACs are just that: unofficial. In that spirit, why not transform them into a short, semi-cooperative group project? The person who does the best job gets to make up the next game idea. By having the only restriction be a specific story, background, or world idea, rather than complicated poly or subject limitations, it lets people really think about making art for a specific game, rather than just making up some random character or vehicle with no greater purpose.

Of course, the key word here is SHORT. Maximum length should be 1 month. How cool would it be after 1 year to have a Game Art gallery featuring the best designs for 12 radically different stories/game worlds? And by letting people decide how much they want to contribute, people can tackle projects that they know they can finish.

Judging is still tricky, but since it’s unofficial, so what if 2 entries tie? they can split the duties of creating the next game idea.

I guess I feel like since it is an unofficial comp, it’s kind of overwrought to have extremely specific limitations on triangles, pixels, and what kind of entry you make. I realize that those limits are imposed to simulate real limits in the game industry, but wouldn’t it be easier to just keep a pinned thread of common genre limitations on different hardware platforms?

#17

adam: the reason why no previous GAC have been team based is because it’s too difficult to coordinate. People are in different countries and time zones and they also work different job hours. I could see you teaming up with 1 other person, that woudl be a lot easier than a group.

adam atomic: one of the previous comps was doing a cartoon character. That had a very good turn out. It was specific in focus, but very open ended. Basically any cartoon character was up for grabs. There were some really cool entries! Open topics like that seem to do best.

#18

yeah i remember that one - it still seemed rather exclusive to me though, especially as the number of level designers and environment artists on CGTalk continues to increase. also, i’m not suggesting that the UGACs become team-only - just that we leave that option open. I think anything we can do to open the comp up to more game artists can only be a good thing. game art is a lot of different stuff - characters and icons sure, but if Metroid Prime, Prince of Persia, and Resident Evil are any indication, levels can be just as important, if not more. If people could enter levels, characters, or props, and could cooperate with a friend (if they wanted), it just seems like it could only increase the turnout, and it is all in the spirit of the comps themselves. i think the judging problems are surmountable.

anyways, that’s my last post about the idea! I’ll stop pestering y’all now :slight_smile:

#19

In general people are into modelling characters or enviornments or vehicles then whats wrong with having what Adam Atomic suggested and have a theme to a game but people who do characters compete against each other and enviornment folk compete together and the same with vehicles. Its easier to judge that way and in the end a nice image of the three winners models together from each category. (this might not work if theres different software being used)

I just think if it’s an enviornment challenge your gonna have pretty much zero interest from the other two groups and visa versa.

#20

Make a naked elf princess / orc warrior theme - we would be swamped with entries.

…
:eek:
Im joking of course.

Its a tricky thing to decide - the last game comp had a great subject (ive wanted to make a fighting game character for ages), but due to the very long deadline and high poly count, a lot of people (me included) lost intrest. Also, coming up with your own design and making use of the full poly budget was a little taxing.

As neil said, the cartoon comp i came up with was more successful due to the lower poly count, the shorter deadline and the fact that everyone likes cartoons and a lot of people wanted to see their favourite in 3d. Also, even though its not as creative, making your interpretation of sometihng thats already designed is easier and more enjoyable, so you can just focus on the modeling and texturing.

Im not sure how to go about doing it in an appealing way, but i think far too many games models rely on soldiers, warriors, fighters etc - i know most games are action packed and require action characters, but i like unconventional characters that dont look like theyre pumped up with steroids and want to kick arse 24/7.
Abe from oddworld and Spike from cowboy bebop are good examples.
What about games like katamari damacy, the sims2 etc? Even dead or alive volleyball (dare i say!), parrappa the rapper and bust a groove (the PS1 dancing game) - they have strong characters and not a single gun or grenade in sight!

Maybe make a rhythm/ dancing game character? Add some style to the proceedings?