New simple shader...Color Coordinates

#21

Cool. I think we are on the same page now. I’d love to see inactive keys dealt with too. Dynamic parenting in place would be cool but the Multiparent plugin does come in very handy for me. Lets cross our fingers and hope some people upgrade so those features get implemented.

#22

And you better know that it’s really appreciated, DMack!
Part of the future is to finally set professional apart from workstation more obviously. There are features planned to come in, which are worth far more than the financial difference between workstation and pro!

But, again, getting the kinks out has been a priority and continues to be one!

I know we have a parent in place feature in setup mode, but I guess you’re talking about an easier way to get it in the list of objects working at any time! Shouldn’t be too hard! Let’s see.

The inactive key thing is very controversial, particularely because there are options to hide them and so forth. Thing is, I don’t know too much about the guts of the keyframe handling, but we’ll have to take it apart again at some point to make some more radical improvements!

You know, upgrading to professional is not really as much of a faith issue as it is an enabling of us so we can give it the next great push. I can’t stress enough that we are technically capable of doing all of it. I don’t remember when we ever did a paid upgrade, I think they were all free ever since I’ve joined the team. We’ll do everything in our power to make a paid upgrade well worth the money. But, again, thanx for your encouragement there!

I think it is very clear that you are with us and your ideas and opinions are well justified. It’s your perspective and it’s just as much in our favour even while you have your focused preferences. No need to worry about a bashing here! :slight_smile:

The main thing I care about is, that a displayed lack of interest doesn’t discourage people to experience the rendering powers of messiah! And I can also not help but urge you to give it a closer look again! I’m not sure what exactly you are rendering and I can imagine that some key features are missing for what you want to do, but you also can count on us to fill in the feature gap as part of our near future! Also, please, understand this, if you take a leap into the rendering and do even just a little bit with it to explore it and make something you could show and expose to others, it would help us a great deal to make it work for you all the way! It’s our definite goal to make the package complete! Yet, in fundamental ways we rely on the symbiosis between you and us, artists and developers! I know this is rather unusual in a world that stuffs people full of prechewed solutions and gives them the sense that they just need to receive and use. Reality is, that they detatch themselves too much from the development and lose the power an artist really has in every aspect of evolution, when it comes to the future of visual effects! I’d say <mildly more geeky than usual> engage!

The more I think about it, don’t hold a carrot infront of our nose, because we’ve seen that one for a long time and the carrot has something we don’t have in messiah yet: FUR!

I can’t make you, but I still make that wish for you to upgrade. We’ll make it show the difference as our part of the bargain! We’d all boost each other up to level 3! Don’t think of this as an arguement, but rather as a statement. It’s all too easy to bash my head in for saying things like the above, if you don’t think about it correctly: We are with you and for you, it’s what we do! No rip offs, no BS and a real desire to give you a perfect tool! (I said desire! Damnit!) It’s for yourself! I love it too much to ever walk away from it, so you’d really just make the future of messiah happen a whole lot faster!

…yeah, yeah, another monsterpost… sorry! :rolleyes:

#23

First off, great to see so many comments from you Taron, they are always so informative.

Secondly, I think the biggest reason you don’t see as much from people on the renderer is because our knowledge pales compared to you on this. I think with the current limited info we have it would take us quite awhile to even approach your expertise. This is one of the main reasons so many of us have been beating on the dead horse that is video tutorials from you. And I’m not talking about huge professionally edited tutorials, I think you loading up Camtasia and just walking through a few things you do while you talk would be a HUGE help to most of us.

This is one thing I haven’t understood about pmg. Every time you post up one of your quick little experiments, people go nuts over them. I know so many people who became interested in messiah from you. Add to that a small video of you running through how you did the shot, I think that would be HUGE. It might be asking to much of you but how hard would it really be for you to take a couple of hours here and there to do this when you know how much it would help.

And lastly, inactive keys are the devils testicles. The sooner they are cut off, the happier I would be. :slight_smile:

#24

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! Devil’s testicles…HAHA…but, but, Damien?

Anyway, nope, it is not asked for too much to have me record a walk-through. I’ve done a few little ones before. Only trouble is, right now I have to use every waking minute to come up with a…

Let’s put it like this, I have recently thought about approaching an online-tutoring program. I most of all thought of it in terms of modeling, but I wouldn’t mind putting a rendering course into it as well, if there’s demand! Thing is, I was thinking of it as a way for me to get by. The modeling sessions would include full demonstrations, assignments and individual support in form of corrections, suggestions and reviews. I’m trying to come up with a pricing that makes sense to the artist and to me, but I want to make it affordable, yet, have to make it worthwhile for myself as well.

Anyway, I’ll make a free rendering session for you ASAP! :wip:

#25

Taron,

Thanks for you honesty and plain speaking. As I have said to you, its high time PmG charge for upgrades. I for one have looked under the hood of the particles system and the rendering and have been in surprised of the possibilities. I’d be happy to support PmG team in anyway, be it paid upgrade, subscription, or separate paid modules for messiah.

I furthermore encourage users to try both the particles and the render and feel free to ask questions here or on #messiah3d.

R

#26

I would ask to please do not do a paid subscription type of thing. That is why I chose Messiah over XSI. If I have to come up with a couple hundred same time next year or my program turns to a pumpking then I would not be very happy. I know of a few max users who left because of just such a thing. I would be happy to pay a reasonable sum for major upgrades but bug fixes should be part of the package.

I think instead you should look into better promotion of the toolset. Right now it took a while before I found out it was a stand alone product and I could import my own models from whatever program I use. (wings 3D usually) I hesitated because I thought I needed maya or lightwave to use it. Really this needs to be  known by the community. Not everyone is a pro who can spend 1-5K$ on a program. Many have skills or just want to be able to make something good those people need to know about messiah. Also maybe get a book or two on it so we can explore it easier and read about how to do things on the bus or at work or while watching Seinfeld reruns. That is why I still like docs in the old dead tree format.
#27

Make a donation page for the 100 thing, make small videos about the render sale them for 50 make 5 at least for now, start the course ask 450 for it and then sale a compilation of the results like 6 videos for 55 each.

and plz make those inactive keys go … wait they can be hide??? you see,…?

#28

I just bought the pro version secondhand from somebody,
so that doesn’t really help…but I wanted to say that if you
made those instructional videos I would buy them. And pay
for upgrades.

PS It’s a beautiful program.

#29

wow, i turn my back for a week and this place is explodes!

taron, all i have to say to you is, where the hell do i send my money?

Ill invest allright.

#30

I already have two professionals… but I want those features.
Can I adopt one of you guys?

#31

@ Panikos

If you want to invest why don’t you buy Maya Unlimited (?)

#32

Hey Taron

Check your PM :slight_smile:

I3D

#33

Ok, just uppgraded one of my licenses to pro. There are basiclly just one thing I expect (not demand :wink: ) in return. That is some kind of integrated netrender controll to use those extra render nodes. It can be super simple to begin with.

#34

second third and fourth that.

and honestly, i like the grandiose plans and ideas for th messiah, but i think everyone here would be absolutely floored at taking care of the niggling bugs and address some of the smaller feature requests / workflow enhancements.

i think the future of 3D art is not in cutting edge necessarily, its having the most fluid and hassle free experience and a standard set of features. I think there is enough technical expertise on these forums to mold messiah into such a package. What can save time for a typical artist doing most common tasks?

I am also in the “focus on animation” camp as well. I feel that rendering market is crowded and extremely cutthroat, it would be unwise to try to take that market by force. However if you focus on having the most badass animation package on the market, you are half way there! using the render engine becomes a natural extension of the workflow…

#35

The philosophy of messiah has always been about usabiltiy - sometimes in fantastic manner (the way the bones just work) and sometimes less fantastic (no weightmap support because the bones just work).

After the last development wave there were a lot of voices for a round of attention for the animation features. There are bugs and devil’s testicles in there (hehe) so - I think its not a question of abandoning anything, but establishing a cyclical development life. Sometimes its as simple as making a feature that’s buried away somewhere default (ie zombie keys or image sequence loads). I have difficulties getting into the renderer, but I’ve seen enough to see the light.
Just: let’s get a round of animate in next.

Taron: the support is there - look at the bug tracker and resources (like Marek’s rig) that are here. I’m in my own dungeon working on a film, dodging quaternion flips and trying to get my messiah project out there…

Personally, I’m more than willing to foot a paid upgrade - we’ve got alot over the years. Some will be put off by that - and with justification - as there’s a been a number of promises and announcements (auto-rig, SDk, Mac-support, Taron videos) so - a bit of credibilty has to be re-won. But I’d say - highlight your accomplishments and work towards a paid upgrade. Those who jump off may be justified in doing so, but others will be won. I think its your responsibility to the active users to ensure development.

#36

Hi guys,

I’m not a Messiah user but totally a Taron fan, from the time he came to Italy to demo Lightwave (can you remember ?) at a convention. Man, people where freaking out…he modeled a full monster head in what…10 minute???

Taron, have you guys at PMG considered a different kind of marketing strategy ? I mean, something like the guys are using at Hash ? Every new build of Animation Master is given to the user so that they can experiment with it and find bugs, via a private forum. I think it could be a really smart move, for now, to keep the momentum on Messiah! A system like trac (http://trac.edgewall.org/) can easily be implemented…

Gian

#37

Taron,

I did a thread sometime ago regards inactive keys. There was a unanimous desire to have them smashed to a thousand pieces! There was no contention at all I can assure you!

Let’s start really small and move on, side by side (no faith stuff), steadily and see how far we can go. So, I propose the following, that I hope will be popular with people.

Get rid of those inactive keys and I’ll pay a $100 upgrade. Let those off paying who’ve just upgraded to pro to help you out.

Come on! Let’s do it! I’ll order the upgrade the day you release it!

Then, lets get everyone’s input on the next few small things to fix and we can do another small, $100 upgrade. Then, when you guys are feeling more able to code more, we can go for a bigger upgrade but let’s start small, and simple for a quick victory!

Lastly, Let’s have a little more focus on Animate.
Small Note
Sorry to sound like a stick in the mud but I just can’t see myself being converted. I agree with Stooch, you’re more than half way there to an industry killer application with Animate. The renderer will forever be competing in an unbelievably competitive market that REQUIRES huge PR input.

Oh lastly again(!), I agree with My Fault on getting some Taron video’s - nothing complex, just get something out there (I’d prefer Animate stuff but hey that’s just me). Have you noticed how fast this thread has grown? We need this sort of activity for more positive reasons!

NOW GET THAT $100 UPGRADE DONE AND TAKE MY MONEY!

:scream:

#38

Taron,

Thanks for the reply. I purchased two seats of the full studio package when it came out. It IS, without doubt, the most enjoyable rigging and animation program. SO I feel I have invested, and have many times lauded the wonders of messiah to pros and on the forums. I’m behind you guys 100%.

Mainly teaching and doing freelance projects, and finishing up my Masters, I have not really worked in messiah much over the last couple of years. However, as you said no one had ben doing much with it, I will doing a pilot for a kid’s series, and will be working heavily in messiah again. Will be starting that after the first of the year.

Things I (and maybe “we”) would like: aside from "features, such as hair, I feel two things could be very helpful in having us use messiah to it’s potential. 1) a simple explanation and overview of the renderer/shaders methodology 2) a little overview of the animation toolset and effects, and even a single sentence about how using one with another could take us down a whole new path and get some more exploration going.

I will no doubt be doing some of that as I delve back into messiah. However, since my project is a small one that I will be tackling almost solely on my own, I may fall back on just what I know about messiah. But I’d like to expand on that. I just think (and I’m sure you’d agree) that messiah is so powerful, and has so much to offer and we to explore, that even just some thought starters as to how things “could” be used together, etc., might be helpful.

I confess to NOT having spent the time in the materials and render modules. They just felt so foreign to me coming from Lightwave. I will have to resolve that by working with it. However, I think many would agree that we could really use some simple tutorials on the elements of both, to visualize how we can wield its power and maybe even break some new ground. We’ve all seen amazing things from you, Wegg and others. I don’t think the rest of us are lazy or uninspired. I think perhaps that we just haven’t been able to put the time into certain areas that obviously you and Wegg have. That’s mostly my fault, and perhaps some more clear overviews from you guys are necessary. I mean, having a manual that covers everything individually is absolutely necessary. But to really use something as powerful as messiah, some documentation on how things work together might be helpful.

Last, having owned a small studio for many years, I suffered from having to do most of the work myself. WHile I loved and intended to do almost all of the animation production myself, I never really wanted to be a rep, bookkeeper, janitor, etc. It was draining. SO I completely understand your (PMG’s) plight. I commend you all for pushing forward. Perhaps finding an investor would be the answer to the things you mentioned. That’s another issue of getting someone who will invest financially, and have the brains to let you guys make the best decisions for the program. (Not an easy person to find)

SO,a word of encouragement. We appreciate the work done to date. I wouldn’t want to ever use anything but messiah. Keep going. Yes, we all want more features, particularly hair I’m sure, but you know any user base is constantly going to ask for more. That is our nature. Just give some frequent updates on what is being worked on, etc. For some, silence is scarey. Fred once said something like most of us not having even tapped the tools in there now. I think he’s probably right. We’ll have to try and do our part as well.

Best,
Rick

#39

Okay, time to jump in :wink:

Hi Taron, I really really appreciate your enthusiasm about all things render - but :messiah´s roots are animation, thats the only thing IMHO commercially useable it is good for for quite some time now… And this in spite off some really annoying issues it carries with it for almost as long…
Sorry, when I post this here but it seems the perfect spot for getting noticed at this time :wink:

These inactive keys stuff is really something that hinders an effective workflow when it comes to time animation… Here´s an example that we came up with a few month ago and which is still valid, and is really still a major pain in the butt… It illustrates the issue that you run into when you are using dopemaster: http://www.93grad.com/Downloads/dope_master_issue_xvid.avi (its an 400k XVid-Avi)
A fix for that and a really usable and comfortable dynamic parenting solution (when you are animating), oh my - that would be fantastic… Regarding the dynamic parenting solution: I saw Maks use a plugin by “jilekjor”(I don´t remember his nick correctly I am afraid…) when working with him on a project just before he left to Montreal that has had a few issues but was a huge leap forward…

Okay, to get to the point: how much would be necessary if these two things get addressed in the next round??? :wink: I mean it - I would be willing to pay for it - I am still trying to use :messiah in production, but these two things alone make it so cumbersome when you have to produce 20 seconds of final scene-animation per week…

#40

Seems that you interpret my words regarding the financial aspect only.
What about the intererest and time I spent learning messiah ?

Do you think that I have excess of time ?

I bought messiah when was a plugin for LW5.6, before its public release and I overuse it for animation.

Do you think I bought messiah to complete a collection ?