New simple shader...Color Coordinates

#98

Rereading some of the thread, its clear the only consensus we can reach is that all of us want pmG and Messiah to succeed and continue its evolution. :applause:

For the record, I paid $1495 for Messiah Studio 1.0 when they first announced its availability, and still wouldn’t mind paying a little more, just to get the product in a truly complete state. The free upgrades are outstanding, but releasing Develop can only lessen the burden for Messiah’s programming maestros. Get that out in the next update, and let the legions of hard core users fix the edit sphere, and zombies and dynamic parent in place and whatever other vermin bother us, so the main developers can focus on Hair. Or vice versa.

Whatever keeps Taron and company motivated and eager to please. Even if they have to follow a tortuously long development cycle like zBrush.

Speaking of which, how does Pixologic manage to survive when they haven’t charged for an upgrade since 1.23b, for or five years ago? Did they sell some of their technology to ILM? Is Google a silent partner? Or did they really sell a million copies with the sudden promise of 2.5? Perhaps another tactic pmG can try (pay now for hair later). Or maybe pmG and Pixologic should join forces and morph into a complete 3D Solution (and still never charge for upgrades). :buttrock:

Bah. I see reality oozing in and suspect 3D is about to get really expensive again. :shrug:

#99

Ahem.

I think there are a lot of myths regarding Develop in the air…
AFAIK, it is just a tool that helps you setting up your plugins parameters, variables, build interfaces for it visually etc.
It doesn’t allow you (please correct me if I’m wrong) to do anything that the current SDK can’t do. :sad:
It just makes it easier and more convenient.

It is an advanced form of the plugin wizards that are part of XSI and other software.

So: Forget about changes to the Edit Sphere from outside Developers, more Import Formats, changes to the Graph Editor or Zombies. The SDK is great but extremely limited in it’s reach, otherwise a lot of those things would lie behind us already.

I personally think as of today that Develop is actually the most unimportant part of messiah. Nice to have but without a much deeper SDK not too much of a feature and a lot of work to maintain.

K.I.S.S. time IMO

Cheers,

#100

Sir ThomasHelzle,

Then that makes sense they chose to put it so far down on their to do list. So, if it won’t help you customize Messiah to an extreme degree, hopefully they’ll go nuts and rip open the SDK so super coders like yourself can remedy the smaller (I’m guessing the edit sphere wouldn’t be too complicated, though it’s probably the most complicated and mind-boggling edit sphere ever invented) frustrations.

Knowing this, I like another free upgrade, before 3.0 is offered, out of spite. :applause:

#101

Sorry to “butcher” you post but i just wanted to evidence those lines :slight_smile:

I have read this thread, and at first i was a bit shocked by it, but then, what the heck… sure charge at will, but before i pay for another update i want some features in there.

Being honest, i coulnd´t care less about rendering (this is ME… mkay? Others might have a diferent opinion) I prefer to see improvements on the animation side of Messiah, thats why i bought Studio in late 2001.

  • Get rif of the Edit Sphere and make a regular gizmo for translate and rotate.

  • Weight maps, they are needed, Metaeffectors might be cool and all, i want industry standard Weight maps.

  • Steamlined Set Driven Keys without the need to go to negative keyframes, please

  • Point and clik Ik

  • Corrective Morph sculpting INSIDE Messiah, after XSI i wont go back to guess modeling in any other modeler.

This are the things that pop up right way into my mind, this and that Graph Editor mockup i did in Photoshop some time ago… Sorry if it sounds harsh, but, having payed for something in 2001 thats still hasn´t been provided, i wont mind paying for an updated, but this time, i want something i will use and really want to dive into, instead of features i dont use.

I know i know, looks like am im being selfish, well probably, but its my money after all,so ill spend it on whatever i want right? So instead of saying i will update, im saying i will update IF i see features im interested, those that i listed are some of them.

ps: Almost forgot: LATICES! its 2006 almost 2007…LATICES PLEASE!

#102

You want modeling? I don’t think they ever intended to add that, so why ask?
I am not so sure it’s really reasonable. They might be more likely to listen if the
requests are reasonable and within the bounds of possibility.

#103

Hi guys,
I’ve been biting my tongue just to not reply, but I can’t help myself now!
To me all of this small upgrade system seems nonsense, and I’m meaning it in the kindest way possible, and I’ll explain why:

First of all what pmg really would need is new buyers, that would be totally scared away hundred of miles if they ever read some of the posts here.
Onestly whould you invest in an app. whoes users, by right, complain of the lack of comunication in future development? And plus have to throw in an extra hundred so that the company can finally correct some minor/major issues and even start thinking about the future versions?

And all this faith thing is wack.
We all have jobs and would we even think to ask our clients, (not that pmg officially has), to add some money to buy equipment so that we can finish the work they had paid us for in the beginning?

This is only going to give pmg oxygen till the next release, after that if their aproach with comunication and pubblicity doesn’t change were going to have the same situation over again, maybe a partnership wouldn’t be bad to reach this task either.

I love messiah and want it to survive but my small opinion is that a company cannot rely on the good proposals of its clients but on its own.

Sorry for the long post,

Rago.

#104

Sil3: butcher right away :slight_smile: You’re welcome, I find your suggestions very good.

There is a difference between “modeling” and moving points around. The latter just needs to save a point offset (that’s what endomorphs in LW is all about) and create a morph target from it. And if it is done like in XSI (where this is called “Secondary Shape Modeling”) you can model on top of your animated object so you really can see how a deformation works. Combine that with a straight forward driven key solution and you are a big step forward towards 2006 animation and easily correctable joints.
The development effort is nothing out of whack for that. Very doable.

Regarding Latices: Look at what fantastic possibilities you get from something like latices if given to the right guy:
http://www.characteranimator.com/temp/movies/character_td.html
Watch “Deformation Grid” - if that doesn’t water your mouth, I don’t know what will :slight_smile:

Watch the other stuff too, all of it - instant joy!

And I am right with you Rago. :thumbsup: :wink:
I personally would be willing to give a little push to pmG since I am heavily invested in messiah with my shaders anyway, but in the end, if messiah can’t survive on it’s own merits, it will die sooner or later or become an “inhouse tool” for Taron (and Wegg :wink: ) once again.

Interesting times :slight_smile:

Best regards,

#105

Okay, my 2 cents - not that I expect them to really help here :D…

I am solely talking about the animate portion - just because that is IMHO the portion of the software that actually helps in an actual production to get you money in (at present)

There are some quirks that come with messiah that at this point in time make it really difficult to establish a rocksolid fast and - even fun - workflow and stay sane at the same time when you have tight schedules - I could probably count them on the fingers of one hand.
If pmG is able to get these few things sorted, it to me is the almost perfect solution to get everything done in a very convenient and flexible way that might come down the road animationwise.
If I can help with a little further investment to get that into the package I would be more than happy.
And when this really happens I have something that I will everybody tell about - and could do that with the absolute confidence that any “high-ender” will have not much arguments left to explain why an industry-animation-workflow could only be achieved with the big M or S…
And messiah definately could stand up to every package on the market when it comes to animation - especially character animation - and would absolutely stand out in so many areas…

So IMHO it would absolutely make sense to me - and quite a few others when I read a lot of the recent postings here - to invest just a little more into the package that can help me/us to get a rocksolid animation solution that I can build a production on.

Its a f****ing great animation-tool already but straightening out a few issues would make it a package that does a big job of selfpromotion by itself, just because it WILL BE used in production!

It was used in the past already - and does now if you are accepting a few painful workarounds in few situations; just for the recorsds:all character-animation projects I was working on since 2000 were based on :messiah - I would really love to continue that tradition :slight_smile:

#106

I agree - these sorts of instant-feedback mesh-control possibilities are important.
Also things like texture-displacement in viewport. (I’m convinced that displacement rigging / modeling is the cat’s pyjama’s - AND would match Taron’s comping tools perfectly). This can be done already using bulge, as written here- but something so powerful should be more accessible.

There’s so much potential…
which is why I think we all want to see the messiah team continue working for us. Its tools are laid out in a way that suits me - as Peter Thomas said, its a great balance between power and accessibility. I know xsi is powerful, and that folk like Bernhard (your link) do kick-ass things with it… but messiah suits me and my way of working.

I reiterate: I don’t think its a question of getting the pmG team back on track as much it is of getting the balance between user base and team back into the correct proportion. (Hold off on the heated response for a sec…) Part of which is a financial basis for continued development - ideally via expanded user base, but also via regular updates.

I feel unwell at the thought that this dev team should be in the defensive - sure there is a list of unkept promises as to features - but there is also a wealth of new features. Has messiah communication been lacking? You bet! Has messiah been clever in its development priority list? Absolutely not! (Do I do a good Rumsfeld impersonation? err… no!)

I just hope that when messiah battens down the hatches and adresses the unkept promises, they will be (finally) met with recognition for all of the goodies that they’ve packed in there over the years.

#107

No i dont want full Modeling, i dont need to delete/add vertices/polygons, turn edges, spinquads whatever, i need/want a way to push points around so that i can make corrective morphs and see them as i move those points around, ala XSI or Animation Master.

If they never intended to do that, well, its a feature requested since 1999, i think maybe its about time they start thinking about it, same way its about time they start thinking about removing the inactive keys… even if those are deeply coded into the core and they need to get their hands dirty, well do it while there are animators wanting to use messiah…

  • by the way, on my previous post Steamlined should be written STREAMlined :wink:
#108

You know, I really like this forum. It’s well administered (allows free speech!) and the people on it seem much clamer than other forums.

rago - Despite suggesting the small upgrade thing, I can completely see your point and to a large degree I agree. The only thing I’d say is that we seem to be in a slightly unusual situation. I’m trying to find a solution (small upgrade thing) that will just push animate to the level where it becomes a real joy to use. At that stage, maybe new users will start to arrive. With Modo advancing leaps and bounds and LW9 out, I think now is a great time to have a dedicated CA tool - and messiah:Animate COULD be that tool. If all PMG need is a small injection of cash, the $100 upgrade might just do it. Longer term, you’re absolutely right - PMG will have to do it on their own. Communication and PR are essential to success and they just don’t seem to want to do it - I just don’t get it? Luxology have PR and communication completely sussed.

If this thread is not helping PMG, just let me know (PM me) and I’ll stop. Personally, I’d like to hear something from PMG and then have this whole thread removed for the sake of sales.

#109
  • Get rif of the Edit Sphere and make a regular gizmo for translate and rotate.

* I agree to a point, option for either or.

  • Weight maps, they are needed, Metaeffectors might be cool and all, i want industry standard Weight maps.

** If it doesn’t take forever but the original reason behind this is because you wouod use different applications that have different ways to use wrightmaps. LW wouldn’t work with Max or Maya.

  • Steamlined Set Driven Keys without the need to go to negative keyframes, please

** not a big issue in the grand scheme but yeah it would be nice. Joe Cosman has some neat workarounds.

  • Point and clik Ik

*** Heck yeah! Faster IK SETUP is always nice.

  • Corrective Morph sculpting INSIDE Messiah, after XSI i wont go back to guess modeling in any other modeler.

** Red flags. See this is just screams that it would take forever to cod ein. Sorta right up there with the hair system. Maya has hair and no one uses it. they love Shave and Haircuts 10x better.

ps: Almost forgot: LATICES! its 2006 almost 2007…LATICES PLEASE

Its license on the technology – ie formula. Maya & Max all paid to use the patent on this technology. Thisis oneof those things that they have to buy the patent to before they even figure out how to code it.
If they wanted Hair … go code it. Lattices. Gotta go ask the due for the rights. Its why Lightwave and Modo doesn’t have yet too.
Expensive.

#110

i moved the post, new url

#111

Softimage XSI model/business plan is akin to Modo.

Look at us, see how well we play with others. Wea re faster or better workflow but if you want to use your app to model and render in then we are going to give you the best to simplify the process of getting your mesh, paths, motion curves and such into them.

Messiah for 2007 should increase on having better animation tools:

Faster and easily duplicatable Rigging.
Even easier coding. Search & replace engine.
Preset coding for more complex rigs.

See Art Of Rigging (translate MEL to messiah codes): Better Animation transfer from one rig to the other.

Eliminate zombies in graph editor.
50 x better “graphical” Pose and efficient system.
having armatures tied to poses, icon base system

Look at animationmentor techiques.
Mkae ppl love to go to messiah first for animating.

Can’t compete with Max,Maya,XSI’s mental ray.

The mdd saver was a great addition.
Make a Maya/Max point cache loader and saver.

PIMP Taron’s name.

#112

Julez…have you noticed that the ONLY 3d software that DONT have Lattices are the LW “spawned” ones: LW itself, Messiah and Modo, even Animation Master has a Lattice for years now, so the only 3 guys that cant afford to pay for a Lattice are this 3?

I think Silo doesnt have a Lattice also, but look at Silo’s price compared to LW, Modo and Messiah Studio prices… no excuse IMO

Anyway regarding that, read this:

First post is from 2003, then at the bottom read Wegg’s post, it’s from january 2006 by the way :wink:

#113

Taron, many thanks for letting us know.

I too think there are some facinating ideas out there, and this is a complicated issue. The only thing for me, since I’ve purchased this back in 2000 is a timeframe. Let’s say they (pmG) go for an upgrade payment plan (just using one of the ideas suggested). You still need the devotion and manpower to produce a product in a reasonable time. I wouldn’t like the idea of someone paying for an upgrade or making a donation to find that the meaty requests / work will occur in 3 or 4 years down the road. I mean if they (pmG staff) all have some other job that they’re getting a paycheck from it’s going to be hard to meet those common software release cycles.

Warmly,

Kelly

#114

Thomas,

What tool is that? The 2d deformation grid deforming the 3d object would be perfect for getting traditional animation contours onto 3dcharacters without a buzzillion bones to shape the surface.

If PMG was able to implement something like this, it would be awesome…(imagine someone my age using that word…)

Thanks,
Rick

#115

It is XSI there was an article about him and his tools on XSI base

#116

Doesn’t anyone else recall the lattice tool pMG included early on? It appeared only once in an update and was pulled from the next (quickly provided) rev. Pulled for the same cost reasons listed by Julez4001.

#117

Didn’t the pattent on those deformers expire? I’d love to see that in Messiah. . .