New Press Release

#41

A technical question: does handling these masses of polygons absolutely require 64 bitness? I ask this because of Leopard’s lack of 64 bit support for UI-related APIs in Carbon. I don’t know what EITG’s developers think of that obstacle regarding the future evolution of EIAS. I would guess Camera’s UI could be done in Cocoa, it being so simple. It’s Animator for OS X the one I fear wouldn’t be able to keep up with a Windows 64 bit version.

#42

Man, AVT cool down a little here. I too make my living with EI (14 yrs) and Ill put my animation awards and credits up with any EI users. I may not employ 5 or 6 people but im easily responsible for many MORE than 5 or 6 employers and employees using EI. Which, in the context of this discussion is just as critical in the growth of EI as hiring people.

 I just spoke with brad for over a half hour yesterday, he's not that hard to get and is a VERY kind and receptive person.  I would guess you have never tried to talk with him directly or asked to be on this advisory board.  I have no problem getting my voice heard at the highest levels of EI on this board or with a simple phone call. (some of us prefer a phone call over email)  My ego, however, does not require me to be on that board however, my opinions are heard loud and clear when I make them.  Thats one of the things I like about EITG.

 As a business man its never wise to stick all your eggs in one basket or software package for that matter.  Im learning MAYA in addittion to EI because I feel its a good business decision for me, makes me more marketable to some possible future clients.

Im guessing you are making those same decisions.

 It just doesn't do any good to rip something that at the very least is evolving into something most certainly better than any of us are used to from EI.  As for me, count me in on the EITG's new more aggressive positioning of itself, I love it!  If EI is no longer doing what you need it to do, I suggest, quietly go your own way and good luck to you.

(this is my useless opinion only, not EITG’s in any way)

#43

Alonzo,

Try to look at it from EITG’s point of view. They have their own set of goals and they must try to address all the wishes and desires of hundreds if not thousands of users. The budgets are limited, and they must take precise steps towards reaching the goal of financial stability and increased market share. That takes time. As much as I want CA tools (now), I’m waiting my turn to be heard just as much as you. Being on the advisory board doesn’t mean my wishes are going to be automatically integrated into the next version of EIAS. Hopefully they’ll take my words into consideration, but you know what…they might not. (And that’s frequently the case)

You have just as much access to Brad via email or phone. Call him…he’ll listen. I’m just simply stating don’t throw around things like “you must”, or “I’ve spent”, or “I’m responsible for …”. He knows people have a lot of things riding on where the application is going…but there are always people with bigger budgets and higher priorities using EIAS with the same issue and by stating your situation is more important than others just turns people off.

It might be different if you or I were willing to open up our pocket books and become a greater investor in EITG. But until one of us is willing to invest a healthy chunk of money in EITG, my “investment” is the same as everyone else’s who purchased the program. Equal.

There are many venues to “advise” EITG. The advisory board isn’t always the “best”.

#44

Maybe this could be moved to another thread… kinda hijacking the original post.

Cj

#45

VizzFizz, my take is the same as Alonzo’s as far as CA tools.
We all saw EIM come onto the scene and we were all excited because now we had our own modeler and at the time, some CA tools were coming onto the scene in EI as well.
So we had all this excitment of what was to come(and we waited a long arse time for modeler to actually come out).

I mean, every other sample image of what the beta testers were making in EIM were of characters.

And then, that whole stupid thing with play happend. And then modeler was super buggy and hard to use. No further development on CA tools.

Users and studios jumped ship. Eventually EIM just went away.

And now, several years after the .fact :slight_smile: we are about to repeat history all over again.

I confidently predict that EI does not intend to ever add modern CA tools or dynamics that would level the playing field with all of the other major players in the industry.

I just don’t understand why EIM is being brought back. From a strategy point of view it just seems like it will not help EI grow or expand in anyway shape or form.
It will however make some of the small user base happy, but that won’t keep EI in business.
On the other hand, adding these modern CA tools will attract people from the whole industry.
It juss seems like EI is afraid to compete with them?

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com

#46

Very true CJ.

#47 
       Yes, I need to talk to him. I did write a letter for him about this a while back but I didn't send it. 
       Then I got so busy with so many things I haven't addressed it. I never got an announcement about v.8 being a CA upgrade from Matt, brad, phil or you. Yes, I'm sure if there's is an CA upgrade I would very much be in an "honorable" advisory position. 
       
       My concern was for the EIAS and the EI community...not me. I'm doing CA and Hardbody renders just fine. 
       
       1. My concern was SPECIFICALLY about a "stand alone" product as oppose to an "intergrated" modeler. 
       
       2. A stand alone modeler that still probably couldn't edit, or  address  over 10 million polgons. 
       
       2A. This probably being boolean, not surface modeler...mainly nurbs. 
       
       2B. Using ubers and old paradigm of pulling points and edges  and not current SOTA, high paintbrush workflow.
       
       3. An animation system classifies itself a hard body render/production tool, yet does not meet the "basic" qualification of most  rendering tool of peliminary import option such as textures. This factor being critical to even starting a job.
       
       4. Again in my first post, as a non-CA production concern. Camera's 2GB RAM limitation.
       EIAS was able to load a 550 mb file and a 750, but as David mention when you add RayT and shader, it couldn't render it realiable. 1,000,000,000,000,000 polys (five sets of triple zeroes)...I could phong render but that's it.
       
       5. With no 64 bit RAM support, Camera needs to look at rendering in 2G RAM chunks from the HD instead of rendering or loading all in to RAM at one time. Someone asked is 64 bit necessary. NO. Other apps use a reference or proxy model workflow. EI needs this replacement/Proxy throughout the whole animation and  render  system if it can't address more than 2 Gb of RAM.

  1. If something is dynsfunctional. I don’t have the option of allowing it to hinder my commitments, goals or success.
    All these points were referred to in my first post.

  2. Moving on.

        This is not about CA. It's about EI. Also, I'm not comparing myself to anyone, there's lots of people way above my range. I'm far more critical of myself to be arrogant. And believe me, I'm not selfish. I had two separate budgets, I have paid out more than I have gotten.
   
   Ok. Enough of the "real talk". Let's just pretend EI is the best app out there. Then we don't have to challenge ourselves. And only say things that appease our egos.
#48

Hey Guys… CJ is right on this…we are getting off topic. Let me try to summarize this and I’ll be happy to move this discussion into another thread.

Both you and Alonzo bring up valid points and try to realize, there’s no one more dedicated to getting CA tools into Animator than me. (Well maybe Alonzo :wink: ) So I don’t think the CA movement is “dead” by any means. CA is unfamiliar territory for EI, but I don’t think they’re afraid of addressing those needs. They just need to be ready for them.

I am not Brad, so I cannot speak for the company and the decisions he makes, however I can speculate (hopefully accurately) why he’s taking this course of action. Also remember, Brad is not Dwight. Brad is willing to take stronger steps than his father did to bring EITG around. So far, Brad’s track record is looking pretty good. EIM under Brad’s direction could be considerably more productive because he seems to believe in the product.

So to continue bringing EIAS back into the limelight, EITG must backpedal a bit in order to move forward.

  1. EITG needs an entire 3D solution. Incomplete solutions limit market effectiveness and lower sales.

  2. Character Animation requires modeling tools. An integrated modeler (though preferred) in Animator could be more costly and may be too extensive to shoehorn into Animator’s older framework.

  3. Thus EIAS needs a new modern framework. This should be the beginnings of that.

  4. EIM’s return “should” address the UV problem and open doors to multithreading and improved memory managment. EIAS artists will no longer have to struggle with limited “projection” style texturing and advances in the framework should hopefully take advantage of modern operating systems.

  5. EIM SDS cages could potentially be exported into Animator resulting in significant advantages. Imagine Encage built into Animator. Done correctly we should be able to see vertex level manipulation begin to appear in Animator.

  6. Brad has already mentioned the need for a data bridge between EIM and Animator which should also be a big help for CA users.

  7. A new modeler is an additional revenue stream if sold separately. Combined with selling plugins, EIM provides EITG with a means to improve revenue and increase the value of EIAS. Diversification in the product line is good.

  8. More money means more enhancements.

All this time EITG isn’t going to stop production on Animator. Their budgets are separate. Animator will continue to advance with new tools and with the advent of EIM returning we should start to see new animation enhancements.

You can point to the past and predict that it will all go south just like before, but circumstances are different now and there is somebody different at the helm. Will Brad pull through? That remains to be seen…but it is his money he’s putting into the company and I can only imagine he’s looking to solidify his base before taking a larger leap.

#49

Alonzo…

I know you want the more modern modeling paradigm within Animator… but reality is that’s not gonna happen. I don’t think the new EIM will just simply be a rehash. I’m sure Kishore has learned a thing or two since then. Maybe some zbrush influences will make its way into the new EIM.

#50

If progressive EI users talking about their production concerns on recently announce new EITG product thread is OT, then please move the thread so those interested in these types of critical production issues can join unencumbered. From what I gather…Brad will be one. :slight_smile: Maybe we can find a way to render a 750 mb Maya file in EI.

 As always Brian, thanks for your response.
#51

Wow, I thought that once I left the EI community all the fighting would stop! :wink:

I almost fell over when I read that EI was resurrecting EIM. Dumping EIM was why I left EI years ago. But I have to say, now that I’ve spent some time with Max and, most recently XSI, no matter what they could do with EIM, it still wouldn’t be worth “backtracking” to me, and here’s why:

  1. It’s clear that EIM is tied to one man. When he leaves, it leaves. That’s just too dangerous for anyone using this stuff for professional use.

  2. Camera still “looks nice,” but let’s face it gang: it’s long since lost its edge with regard to the performance/quality ratio goes. Maybe on a single core, single processor machine it still trounces anything, but who still uses a machine like that for pro 3D?

  3. Aside from the unique benefits of EIM and Camera, the rest of the program is just antiquated code used as a bridge to hold it all together. Honestly–especially for you folks waiting around for CA tools from EITG–Animator is so far behind the curve with regard to possibilities it’s amazing. “Ease of use” could be it’s strength, but it’s not easy enough for that honor. And it really does nothing that scores of other 3D apps today don’t do better.

All that said, I have to hand it to the folks at EITG: Anyone that can sell EI for several hundred bucks more than XSI Foundation is blessed with pure sales genius.

If EITG make EIM a stand-alone product (as many of us have suggested they do for years), they might have something really unique and useful. But the lukewarm reception given to programs like Moi3D and Viacad sort of suggest that market has its limits too.

But forget EI, EITG and EIM–I have to ask you all: Why in the world are you waiting around for a company to deliver the tools you need? I joined the EI community in the 4.x days and have ever since seen it as a “the next version is going to rock!” situation. I would have imagined by now that EI would be so extremely powerful, that other apps would be trying to follow suit. After all, didn’t they rejoin forces with Granger a while back too?

I feel for you, Alonzo. I feel you have every right to stomp anything you like, as often as you like. We are investors in this company. (Yes, I still have my licesense. Anyone want to buy it?) :wink: We spend time and money learning and using this stuff. And, as invenstors, we have the right to complain or, of course, move on. I choose to do the one, and then the other.

Is XSI perfect? Heck no, but I think at this rate you guys will be complaining about the way EITG has implemented features into EI version 10 that are in XSI today. Stop limiting yourselves! Come to the Dark side. :wink:

Okay, let the hate mail flow…

#52

No hate mail, SFDD.

You make some valid points, as always.
You’ve been right, to a certain degree, over the years.
And maybe some EI users will learn something new from what you have to say.
But most of us, I would guess, are well aware of what the competition is offering.
We also long for what EI does not have.
We’ve also had our feelings hurt by the lack of progress… over the years.
Still, we choose to continue using EI for our own reasons.
You actually seem to care deeply about EI.
Maybe there’s a better way you could contribute.

Jim Mulcahy

#53

Hi SFDD,

Impassioned post eh. Quite simply, using EI isn’t even a remotely torturous experience for me, it does what I need it to and it does it very well. The day it stops me from doing my job is the day I’ll move on.

I hope you can appreciate how that’s the way it works for many of us,
Ian

#54

Couldn’t resist chiming in on SFDD’s post.

Modelling and rendering applications are but tools to enable people to deliver a creative vision. Whatever the tool its the ability and skill of the user that shines through. EIAS has been my ‘tool’ of choice for the last 13 years and whilst I’ve had my fair share of frustrations for technical idiosyncrasies in the early years in recent times things have been getting better and better.

Working in a commercial environment (mainly architectural) clients are like magpies, wanting the latest, glossiest, ‘of the moment’ results. The resulting work, because other apps seemingly require less thinking is dull and uninspiring. Sometimes its better to have to think a bit to get the result you want rather than just do it because it can.

Just look at the work of Tomas Egger and Cristobal Villa and its evident that EIAS is very capable in the right hands.

And as we move forward, with the improvements of V7, the re-introduction of EIM, the potential for improved CA, the fundamentals of how EIAS works best still remain, but with additional tools to get even better results.

I for one am heartened by the activity over the last 6 months in bringing more tutorials and resources to support the EI community. If we continue to show how new (and old) users can get the best out of the app then quality will out.

James

#55

Another UKEIAS appreciation post…

Two things:

1, There are still a lot small companies/artists like myself who don’t have large render farms to take in the advantages of all the latest tricks in 3d. Therefore all the benefits that EIAS had in the early day - fast but brilliant render qualities are still very relevant today. I only have two top spec computers but with EIAS I know I can get the job done within a very tight dead line. GI, caustic, ray traced soft shadows are just not an option.

2, I am often asked to give talks at film festival and afterwards there is always someone new to 3d who asks what software I use. To their amazement it’s not Maya and you can see they get very excited about the idea of EIAS until I have to mention that there is no modeller! Oh they say! and walk away - another lost EIAS customer. OK EIM is not integrated but it is the quickest and best option for EIAS to get back to a position where they can start attracting new customers.

Robert

#56

Some seems to have a bad experience with EI or wrong expectations for what they will get from EI.
I can only talk for my situation. I bought EI Version 2.9 because I needed more photorealistic look for my product presentations.
This time many people told me not to do this, because I’ will regret it. EI was limited to phong-shading others offered raytracing etc. But I decided to buy EI because I saw phantastic photorealistic work from some guys in the gallery. I had Strata at this time with raytracing and even radiosity but you can’t squeeze out this level of realism from the app and it took endlessly to get things done.
I was teacher for Strata in this time an nobody understood my decision.

I was really happy then the first version of EI with raytracing and modeler came out.

EI did was I wanted and paid back the money i spend for it.
After Version 4 I didn’t see the benefits over my current version, so I skipped the next Update. Then EI discontinued modeler, which was important for me.
So I decided to get another modeler (SolidThinking) but no new Animator, because everything was ok with the old solution.

Now I’m teaching Cinema 4D since some years and it’s right C4D has some very nice features and a straightforward user-interface. But many of the things it provides are worthless to me because I don’t need them.

In addition to my SolidThinking I wanted to have a higher-level render-solution than EIAS 4. For some projects I need caustics and sub surface reflections.
I was in doubt if it will be C4D or EIAS 6.6. Since I know C4D well I tried EIAS 6.6 for 15 days.
I felt very happy with EI because it is much more predictable for me how the look will be.

Hearing that version 7 is on the way and the return of modeler made me very happy.
This is the reason why I bought it now.
Modeler is my preferred quick and dirty sketch-tool. If I figured out what I will in EIM, I do it in SolidThinking, which is much more expensive and more buggy modeler ever was, but finally it produces production-ready forms.

I don’t expect EIM will do this in future, but it will be a great addition to ST.
And Animator with camera is the best render and light setup-solution I find for my work.

I don’t know if EI will ever compete with the big boys in the 3D market, but for me it is simply the best tool.

regards

Frankg

#57

Even being in the “EIM, yay!!!” camp, I don’t forget for an instant that EIAS needs way way better import capabilities to better satisfy users of other modeling apps. As EIM’s ETA is so close, I guess what we’ll see first is simply the app brought up to the last ACIS engine and current OSes’ compatibility and hardly anything else added to it.

So the Poly/SubD and other 3D apps crowd still needs decent ways of getting their TEXTURED models into EIAS. Well, everybody does, really.

#58

If EI doesn’t have a built in modeller then using eim is no different then using Moi3d or Silo or any other modeler out there.

Their budget would be better spent on adding internal control or import options that would handle the texturing issues.

I use EI for Pre-Vis work, specifically for the toy industry.
I also do a lot of pre-vis animation work that I could not in a million years use EI for
as I have to integrate 3d human figures into the animation.
Being a small shop I appreciate the unlimited render farm capabilities, but it rarely serves me any purpose as I’m just pushing stills out for my EI work.

We will see no significant changes that will better position EI in the market place with these new/actually old events that are taking place. I never thought I’d think this, but SFDD, who is a bit harsh in his older posts, makes excellent points in his latest post.

#59

As Brian said, the new EIM will probably have a direct bridge to Animator, so it will be very different to working with other modelling apps. If it doesn’t then yes, I agree with you.

Ian

#60

Oh no! Not you!..LOL.

How’s it going Dave? I see you’re all geared up to install V7 when it comes out in a few days:-)

A few years ago, more often than not, if you were an EI user that’s what you used - these days, especially since Maya became affordable to mortals, if you are an EI user you pretty much have other 3D apps at your disposal.

I don’t think there are any more hold-outs for not using other apps along EI in one’s work. The EI community is a mixed user group.

One thing I’ve been noticing in my work is that each piece of software which I use has it’s own personality and I tend to gravitate to a certain look within that program. There are projects I immediately start in EI, some in Max/Brazil and now some in Modo. I have an older copy of C4D and it has some great features and capability but that’s one piece of software which doesn’t do any one thing really well so it gets a supporting role most of the time.

I’ve yet to find one piece of software which gives me all the tools I need to do my illustration work. Actually EI is the closest (when it shipped with EIM) but there are some of the newer rendering features which are so slow and non-intuative that I hardly use them at all. I was hoping V7 would rework much of that but from the silence of the B-testers it seems not. I was hoping I could concentrate more heavily with EI as I really like that app for the most part…I’ll just continue to use it for what it does well and the other’s for what they do well.

How are the SDS in XSI?