MrRevolver

[halfworld]

This is very cool

Attached is my first concept revolve

This was really easy to set up and is a great alternative to having bezier inside the MrRevolve interface.

I’ll come up with something more constructive tonight,
Ian

[Igors]

Hahah. Igors this is not the first time you have politely to told me to “shut up” LOL. Igors tell me I talk too much in my own post in postforum haha. Don’t worry about it, I know Igors for a very long time. haha. It could be worst. haha
Yes, I am the culprit. I will try to stay only on topic, and not dreams about EIAS financial structure. API, and stuff. It’s important to me so thanks Brian but for the purpose of Igors checking info for bugs and feature. I will save him the time of sifting through long posts.
Haha. My apologies. I get carried away.

(Texturizer…that had to be the last straw) LOL.

Alonzo, we never said you “shut up”, but we said (and we repeat again) that your fountain of ideas should be organized well, otherwise, in our opinion, it cannot be effective

[Vizfizz]

Ok…Path2Line does fill a need. This is a step forward. Curves can now be generated through animation paths in EI. Its a little clunky compared to a direct implementation by the host program for curve generation, but it does allow the user to:

1. Use the EIAS windows as drawing area.
2. Users can then snap and resize the grid within EIAS.
3. Use beziers for curve reshaping.

Some immediate limitations include:

1. Plugin refresh. Alterations to the motion path requires Path2Line to be updated in order to update revolver.

2. No ability to form closed line cross sections.

3. A little counter intutitive as far as a drawing mechanism. Advancing the timeline in order to draw takes some getting use to.

However, I think it shows promise and can certainly be utilized. If EITG doesn’t wish to include modeling tools into Animator, I would simply suggest that they provide a method to generate splines. Splines could then be tapped by a number of plugins by both Konkeptoine and Northernlights.

[AVTPro]

No and (maybe) it should be changed. Now the plug-in automatically shifts points are located nearby revolve axis (the tolerance is 5.0e-5).

I had a problem with points that were not this close to the revolve axis automatically shifting while dragging.

It provides a monotonous topology (quads only). Other possible solution is to weld these vertices. It guarantees “no any holes” but requires quadrangles/triangles mix.

I hope quads stay and only triangles at the end point when necessary to close for volumetric renders.

About MrRevolver + Encage. Yes, we also have found this combo is often much more effective than increasing of revolve resolution. But from our side it would be not correct to use this thread for promo of another product

Yes, leave that to Mr. Revolver.

[Vizfizz]

No and (maybe) it should be changed. Now the plug-in automatically shifts points are located nearby revolve axis (the tolerance is 5.0e-5). It provides a monotonous topology (quads only). Other possible solution is to weld these vertices. It guarantees “no any holes” but requires quadrangles/triangles mix.

About MrRevolver + Encage. Yes, we also have found this combo is often much more effective than increasing of revolve resolution. But from our side it would be not correct to use this thread for promo of another product

Perhaps there can be a method in which the plugin can weld and triangulate a model into a solid closed object, but then it sacrifices its animation capabilities. It could be a user selection button. I think making geometry that is compatible with SSS is important.

Make Weld

[AVTPro]

What we absolutely need is a direct .eps import in EIAS. I am asking it for a long time but things don’t seem to move. The new Igors purpose to be able to transform EIAS paths in curves readable by Revolver isn’t the best solution (but is it a solution that they can implement for their new plug-in, so I understand). As .eps import function was part of the Modeler, why couldn’t they add a part of the existing code to EIAS or combined it with Transporter? Open Transporter, select an .eps file, save as .fact and do what you want in EIAS. I think I’m dreaming cause EIAS world is a bit slow to evoluate. Hopefully russians are standing at the corner to make things changing.

  This is what I mentioned in my first post in this forum, and in it, I mentioned that I was hard on betas, (forwarned is foretold).  So at the risk of being redundant, I have to bring this up again as well because without EPS imports, it just doesn't make sense. If a 3D modeler is needed then the plug doesn't succeed as an alternative for a modeler with the use of a 2D draw program. I understand this is Beta, so this can still be yet to come. 
  
  Anyone interested in buying Revolver is going to do as I did at the top of my post, assume it imports EPS files directly from Illustrator. Anyone, everyone, and anybody, especially those who have previous experience with INVIGORATOR. It imports EPS and Revolver would be considered a competitive counterpart to this plug. 
  
  If Revolver doesn't have EPS imports, then it's going to severly dampen it's gamut among 2D designers, it's appeal and this non-functionality should be reflected in it's cost.
  
  Sorry if this is  stark, blunt or exacting, I'm just stating the obvious and being upfront. As much as I love Encage, It was only a patch to a problem that currently exists with Mr. Revolver. All the recent path drawing post (10?) are merely workarounds to a clear expectation, need and omission. Editable Bezier profile curves with corner points to break tangencies whether EIAS has the fundamental architecture or not should be a availabe in the plug. Comparitively, it's common in Inivigorator.
  
  (ducking)

[Vizfizz]

Ok. Lets put the EPS request on hold for a while. The Igors are firm in their decision not to include it. (at least for now) I side with you Alonzo because I think EPS import is important, particularly for 2D designers…but we are not creating Invigorator 2.0. Perhaps Blair can include eps import in Transporter or EITG can choose to make it happen. But for now, lets respect the programmers’ decision and perhaps they can provide us with something better. We’re only in Beta 2.

Until then lets remember that this plugin is only a means to generate geometry quickly and easily within Animator without needing to jump into another package.

Our current modeling options are such:

1. Revolver’s internal cross section editor.

• Still basic.
• Lacks drawing tools.
• No closed cross sections.
• Grid still requires additional tools.
• No multiple lines.

2. Child objects generated from outside modeling sources.

• Somewhat self defeating in that you need a modeler to model something. However, you forget about the animation capabilities within the plugin which makes this option valuable.

• Supports more complex shapes.

• Supports closed entities.

3. Child objects from Path2Line.

• Addresses some of the limitations from the internal cross section editor.
• Works with the EIAS grid and snapping capabilities.
• Permits limited bezier functionality.
• Can potentially be used by other plugins.

Not a bad start. Matt Hoffman has been reading this thread. So as we discover things, ideas may forming in Matt’s head as well.

[Igors]

1. Revolver’s internal cross section editor.

• Still basic.
• Lacks drawing tools.
• No closed cross sections.
• Grid still requires additional tools.
• No multiple lines.

Let us explain our opinion. We’ve attached the screenshot of line editor (max) that we use often and we like very much. Not all options are shown. Things like zoom, snap etc. are supported from menus. We are fully sure this editor is not redundant and all its options are very usable. Moreover, we would like to see some new options.

So, what to do? Should we’ve all this inside MrRevolver? Obvious absurd Yes-yes, we know: Igors overestimate the problem, of course, such monster is unneeded, but it would be nice to have a lite mini-editor etc. Unfortunately, we know very well what would happen on this way. Be sure: each heavy monster was initially designed as a “lite” and “mini” thing, just “on road” it has got more and more burdens.

Each development requires to be realistic and it’s really hard. It’s not a pleasure to understand that EI has not any line editor, has not eps import and has not many things that other apps have. “Give me eps import first and then (maybe) I see what is your revolving”. That’s a classic example of a not-realistic and not-constructive approach that can have only one result: no eps, no plugs, no developers.

A normal plug-in should process anything passed to its input and it’s a problem of user (not of plug-in) where the source data created/imported from. Same as a shader is responsible for shading and should not provide a geometry to shade.

MrRevolver input: lines can be delivered by standard import, drawn inside the plug-in, achieved with Pat2Line. Not too bad imho! All ways have their limitations/defects? Absolute yes! But all ways are usable? Yes too

Let us say a strange (in first view) thing: a stupid product has more chances to be sold well than a clever one. True-true. “Ahhaa, people say that Mrs graph is primitive… Why I need a primitive tool?”. But Invigorator is not primitive (cause it has no any profile editor) . Conclusion: need to buy Invigorator instead of primitive Mrs. Be sure, such logic works very often. A stupid product has a great advantage: it produces no questions and problems. So, let’s kill graph in MrRevolver beta 3 ?

Summary: gentlemen, we ask you to be realistic and constructive. The time you and we spent for discussion of side things sorta eps/line edit is quite enough to create another one “Mr”, sure! New revolve features? Lofting? Other model tool(s)? That’s not a fantasy, need only rid of an illusion “the product should do all I want (from import up to make a coffee )”

[Igors]

Attached is my first concept revolve

Oh, we planned very similar example as a tutorial Ok, no probs, we’ll prepare a spring instead

NOTE: the “AdvancedExamples” prjs contain a lot of keyframes. Our next experiments showed: often it’s much more simpler/effectiver to use EI curve editor.

[AVTPro]

I agree with every thing you said Igors. The longer you carry a program the heavier it gets This was my main modeler ten years ago. Very primitive but only 724K. Swivel 2.0
One took one click to draw the sphere in the cross section and only took one side (revolve )view to do this.

Photoshop 3.0 path tool only use one or two modifier keys.

[halfworld]

It’s about time for a new thread

Beta 3 is nearly here so lets use this forum to discuss and give feedback on the third beta /request additional features, so while I’m here:

I would like to request the ability to cap partial revolves (see attached pictures).
This sounds simple enough, but what if the source line is non planar? It suddenly becomes horribly complex… So maybe this should only be available when using the internal graph?

Thoughts/ Solutions are welcome on that…
Ian

[Vizfizz]

Igors,

I don’t believe the general public is asking for you to create a “monster” plugin. We know that the more you pack into the plugin, the more time and energy you put into it. Since this is a public discussion…lets try to finalize a list of features that we wish to shoot for and then reach that goal. I think having modeling capabilities within Animator is a considerably “passionate” and “touchy” topic for a lot of people. Several consider it the very thing that is holding EIAS back. Feature requests start adding up, because everyone wants a “cool” tool to work with. I plan to contact EITG and ask Matt to help resolve some of these problems. Hopefully it will be possible for them to put a basic curve generator into EIAS to help solve some of our problems.

Oh, you mentioned “So, let’s kill graph in MrRevolver beta 3”… ummmm no. Bad idea.

Now lets try to finalize features for Mr. Revolver Beta 3.

Current Features:

Inputs: Graph editor and Child objects: Done
Variable resolutions for Animator and Camera: Done
Partial Revolve Angle in V direction: Done
Offset from Plugin Location: Done
Horizontal and Vertical Scale (graph scale): Done
Cross Section I/O: Done
Smoothing and Invert Normals: Done
Traveling feature: Done (Is there any expectation to forward this capability into Camera?)
Path2Line for Child objects: Done

New Features:

Graph Snap
Adjustable Graph Resolution
Graph Zoom and Pan
Closed cross sections within the graph editor
Capping functions for Partial revolves in the V direction
Partial revolves in the U direction (Along the cross section line) - Animatable (I think this is very important for modeling too. It would allow the user to break a model up into parts)
Welding function to close final revolved object for SSS compatibility.
Variable revolve axis (X, Y, or Z)
A line segment drawing tool in the graph rather than placing points along the existing line.

Any other features? Additions, subtractions?

Thoughts Igors?

[Vizfizz]

I’d really like to keep everything in a single thread for the sake of continuity. I don’t want potential readers or EITG to have to jump from thread to thread. This thread will be absorbed into the original Mr. Revolver thread.

[Igors]

It’s about time for a new thread

Beta 3 is nearly here so lets use this forum to discuss and give feedback on the third beta /request additional features, so while I’m here:

I would like to request the ability to cap partial revolves (see attached pictures).
This sounds simple enough, but what if the source line is non planar? It suddenly becomes horribly complex… So maybe this should only be available when using the internal graph?

Thoughts/ Solutions are welcome on that…
Ian

Hi, Ian

We think your request makes a sense. But we don’t understand images you posted
We see caps generation as:

for each processed line the plug-in closes the controur (by adding an extra segment if the line is opened) and then polygonizes the closed line. Self-intersections and other troubles are possible if the contour is non-planar or if the added extra segment crosses source line etc. - nothing to do, each tool has its limitations. Shading: “smooth along” is used for caps as well

[halfworld]

Hi Igors,

The images just showed what partial revolve capping was…

I can understand the limits completely, you can’t change the laws of mathematics
Mr. Extrude anyone? Just kidding,
Ian

[Igors]

Hi, Brian

I don’t believe the general public is asking for you to create a “monster” plugin. We know that the more you pack into the plugin, the more time and energy you put into it. Since this is a public discussion…lets try to finalize a list of features that we wish to shoot for and then reach that goal.

Fully agree and promise maximal support from our side.

Traveling feature: Done (Is there any expectation to forward this capability into Camera?)

Sorry, but no - we see no ability to force it to work in Camera.

Capping functions for Partial revolves in the V direction
Partial revolves in the U direction (Along the cross section line) - Animatable (I think this is very important for modeling too. It would allow the user to break a model up into parts)
Welding function to close final revolved object for SSS compatibility.

We would accept anything rational for “revolve itself”. Please explain more with caps - now we don’t understand what to do. The schemes/images would be wanted

Variable revolve axis (X, Y, or Z)

But it’s enough to rotate the plug-in group, no?

Graph Snap
Adjustable Graph Resolution
Graph Zoom and Pan
Closed cross sections within the graph editor
…
A line segment drawing tool in the graph rather than placing points along the existing line.

Brian, is it a FINAL list of graph editor new features? If so, our answer is YES. But if it’s only a first of 5-10 such lists, then sorry, but NO, we are too young to die

[AVTPro]

Igors,

I think having modeling capabilities within Animator is a considerably “passionate” and “touchy” topic for a lot of people. Several consider it the very thing that is holding EIAS back. Feature requests start adding up, because everyone wants a “cool” tool to work with.

I have to say Brian, you make a very good forum leader. You clearly understand the concerns without bias and very objective.

Any efforts toward a modeler in EI is going to be passionate and touchy subject.

I have to also say, Mr.Revolver is a very good Plugin and product that does exactly what I need.

As you can see from my table lamp, the curves are perfect with Encage. At this point, for me, bezier curves are really a non-issue. My concerns were for people expecting the same results without Encage. Personally, since I have Encage, if the writing beziers inside the graph editor rose the price, I could do without it.

This is probably the best curves smoothness I have ever had in EI, because I can create them at a low resolution and render they much higher.

Thus far, Mr. Revolver as model lathe plugin is will work for me and is a God-Send for my Pheonix SpaceShip. It generates very smooth models in no time.

I have much more beta testing to do, discovering what features in Revolver that I don’t know how to use yet.

Igors, to say Mr. Revolver is not too bad, is an understatement. It’s a very good solution that goes a very long way to fill a direct modeling gap in EIAS.

Thanks. Please keep up the good work.

[Vizfizz]

Fully agree and promise maximal support from our side.

Excellent to hear.

We would accept anything rational for “revolve itself”. Please explain more with caps - now we don’t understand what to do. The schemes/images would be wanted

Working on those now.

Brian, is it a FINAL list of graph editor new features? If so, our answer is YES. But if it’s only a first of 5-10 such lists, then sorry, but NO, we are too young to die

Don’t worry, I don’t think people are requiring you to rewrite Modeler.

[Vizfizz]

Hey Igors,

Ok… let’s examine the list of feature requests and try to determine why they are needed and if they are possible.

Requested Graph Tools:
-Graph Snap (Really necessary for accurate drawing)
-Adjustable Graph Resolution (Finer graph resolution for drawing more detailed x-sections)
-Graph Zoom and Pan (Important for finer graph resolutions)
x Variable or user defined axis not required. Drop this request.

Requested Drawing Tools:

• A traditional line segment drawing tool rather than command clicking on an existing line. (more natural drawing process)
• The ability to draw closed cross sections. (Necessary for capping)
• Clear or Reset profile button for the graph editor. (Simply Convient)

Geometry Generation Tools:

• Closed planar cross sections in the child or graph editor are permitted to generate caps.
• Welding function to fuse a fully revolved model into a single mesh. SSS compatible.

Animation Tools:

• Partial revolve settings along a line segment’s U direction. This should be an animation feature. It can also be used to accurately divide a revolved object in specific sections. Massively beneficial feature for both modeling purposes, texturing purposes, and animation effects.

[Igors]

Hi, Brian

Requested Graph Tools:
-Graph Snap (Really necessary for accurate drawing)
…
-Graph Zoom and Pan (Important for finer graph resolutions)

Clear, accepted

-Adjustable Graph Resolution (Finer graph resolution for drawing more detailed x-sections)

Not clear, please explain details

• A traditional line segment drawing tool rather than command clicking on an existing line. (more natural drawing process))

Hmmm… yes, more natural, but please remember - graph points are transformed into vertices, i.e. it’s a discrete set. A smooth curve line itself corresponds to nothing yet - need extra options to define its tesselation etc. Thus we think a traditional drawing would bring more problems but less benefits.

• The ability to draw closed cross sections. (Necessary for capping)
• Clear or Reset profile button for the graph editor. (Simply Convient)

That is already achievable: press ‘H’ to set a same position for all selected points. Press ‘A’ (select all) and then Backspace (delete selection). Ok, in any case the graph toolbar is planned for beta 3 and these options will be there as buttons too.

Geometry Generation Tools:

• Closed planar cross sections in the child or graph editor are permitted to generate caps.
• Welding function to fuse a fully revolved model into a single mesh. SSS compatible.

Clear, accepted

Animation Tools:

• Partial revolve settings along a line segment’s U direction. This should be an animation feature. It can also be used to accurately divide a revolved object in specific sections. Massively beneficial feature for both modeling purposes, texturing purposes, and animation effects.

Clear overview, let’s specify details:

1. Now “U” is “revolve angle”, and "V’ is a length along path. In your images it’s vice versa. Let’s swap U-V? (it’s always better to have names/terms are compatible with other apps)

2. You showed that caps are disabled for non-planar contours. We think it’s practically simpler to generate caps always if they are required in the plug-in interface, and let user be responsible for all non-planars and/or self intersections

3. A dividing revolved object in a series of sections (together with caps) is an interesting idea. It requires additional parameters, like: Section Angle and Sections Count, isn’t it?