most complex toon-Rigg - inspiration


#1

Hi guys.

I saw this video on a site:
[vimeo]278691057[/vimeo]

Long time ago since i saw such a complex toon-rig. Really amazing ! And imidiantly a questions pops up in my mind, if something like this would be possible
inside C4D? What do you think? Are there any comparable videos out there, made by C4D ?


#2

Going to play devils advocate here but this is nearly impossible with C4D because of two things:

(1) C4D has this priority system where every rigging feature should be more or less in order with other priority system. In Maya, you can freestyle and you’d still have a working rig
(2) C4D do not have GPU evaluation. Looking at the fps bar, that rig clocks at around 1fps to 2fps when controllers are moved and that is with GPU evaluation (enabled by default in Maya). I’m not even sure if you even move controller like this in C4D.


#3

Yeah that rig is bananas. It’s these stuff that is tempting me to learn Maya.


#4

Woha thanks for sharing! I honestly don’t think that this is possible with C4D (yet). But I think Maxon will go further into the VFX and Animation path with C4D. Motion and Object Tracker were something I never anticipated for Cinema. and when you want to make C4D more suitable for VR you also need more ways to animate.


#5

I am pretty certain you could build that rig in C4D. The priciples are the same in C4D. Its a trickery to setup everything. But I dont see a reason why this should not be possible in C4D. In 99% of cases you can work around the Priority Issues. If not you do a bit of python coding.
Dont think that using Maya enables you to make such rigs. Making such rigs needs a lot of experience and practice. Its not a Matter of the Application. Performancewise I am not sure this would be a problem in C4D. The bottleneck is XPresso (singlethreaded). But I dont think you would need to do a lot of calculations in Xpresso. Most things I saw in that rig is Deformers and Blendshapes and Constraints. Deformers are most Costly performance wise. And Deformers are Multithreaded in C4D.


#6

This reminds me of the days when we kids all built street muscle cars and thought it was cool to install huge cams, tunnel rams, and over sized carburetors (Google them).
They looked really impressive. But the cars were undriveable slugs on the street until you got the car moving over 80 mph.

-ScottA


#7

Its actually more about how you get to the final result. For example: for C4D it takes 50 lines of code to get to a result instead just 2 lines in another application.


#8

Not sure what you are reffering to. Do you mean Python Scripting?


#9

Yeah I was thinking of the example that Entagme gave concerning cinema vs houdini. He showed a setup where there where bunch of lines of codes in cinema 4d but in houdini it was just a couple of lines. But I do agree that every major 3d program is capable do to almost everything it just depends on your technical skills.


#10

Yeah that is possible. But I think especially when comparing Houdini VS. C4D there is a lot of differences in many areas that it is hard to just compare it in one area. I am also sure this rig could be build in Houdini. Would it be quicker/more fun I am not sure. Houdini is a data driven Application that is great to process a loooot of data. But setting up Rigs I think the C4D Way is not that bad. Linking objects by arranging Objects in the Objectmanager is pretty nice. But I dont want to get into a disscution here as I have never done Rigging in Houdini.


#11

Very (very!) cool to see this rig in action!

I love the work from mindbender!

[vimeo]278718222[/vimeo]


#12

really an amazing and truly mind bending rig! i too would say that most of of it is possible in c4d, but as bentraje said c4ds priority system would make it really hard to make such a complex rig work flawlessly. i’ve been working on more complex facial rigs lately and it’s just driving me crazy. hours and hours of fiddling around with priority values, i can’t imagine how frustrating it would be to set up priorities for a rig like that above. maybe if one knows python well there’s workarounds, but rather simple people like me are stuck with constraints, xpresso and deformers. here’s a question for the coding aficionados out there: why can’t c4d just evaluate by itself what needs to be calculated first? forgive me if that’s a stupid question, but to me it sounds only logical that a 3D software would do that automatically. it’s really one of the rare occasions where c4d is much less intuitive than its competitors. i’ve not yet heard anyone doing rigging in c4d say “yeah, priorities rock”.


#13

A lot of arguments from people uncertain how to do it in any app. Its futile to argue what app is better at an area you don’t fully understand. If the impression is that maya is specially suited for this type of rig, consider that the only three good examples I know of, of a rig with this sort of extreme cartoony flexibility, are all from Mindbender studios, it isnt hard to realize there is a particularly talented rigger or team of riggers there who specialize in this style and this is the fruition of further developing their cartoon network rigs from several years ago.

Talent, time and evolution, nothing to do with software. We can discuss simplicity of python APIs but you dont see a lot of character work coming out of houdini, so again it’s a moot argument.

The discussion on performance is a tough on in this case, as yes maya does have the ability to accelerate their character rigs with the GPU. However what is in a rig and what they call accelerating a rig are two very different things. Skinning deformation, ik solvers and rivets doesnt mean all types of deformations and blendshapes etc are,k and when you start to mix I custom expressions and such, you basically sacrifice that acceleration for functionality. I highly doubt the is a big performance difference with and without the GPU acceleration of a rig like this based on the extensive benchmarking I saw while at Dneg.


#14

https://vimeo.com/274382062
This is a complicated C4D face rig that I made. I spent a lot of time dealing with priorities. I hope that C4D R20 can automatically animate logic instead of requiring us to manually handle the priority, which is too backward :frowning:


#15

i’m afraid we won’t see that in r20, as character animation apparently isn’t given a high PRIORITY at maxon :wink:
as you know i’ve built similar features like yours (not quite as slick though), and i just couldn’t get rid of all the priority issues as of now. you fix it at one place, and then another conflict appears, with dozens of constraints and xpresso tags it’s really hard to get those issues sorted properly. rigging in c4d would be way more fun if we wouldn’t have to deal with that. nevertheless, keep doing what you’re doing, you’re very good at it, your work has been an inspiration to me!


#16

Thanks everfresh
I think C4D should be able to complete this complicated rigging after completely avoiding the priority. He is not difficult, but it takes a lot of time to test (one month? two months? maybe more)
Most of my rig is made according to Maya’s tutorial. You are very familiar with C4D’s node system, bone constraints, etc. I think I can try to learn Maya’s rig teaching. I think the logic is universal, but C4D must be considered. Priority issue! !
I still hope that C4D will be fully automated in the future.


#17

I have the feeling they are combining several rigs and meshes into a kind of “container” and switch between them seamlessly which is the master class shown here. There are several seperate meshes which they switch on and off and every one has its own rigging system. The joints, clusters, morphs and deformer etc. tools are the same we have in C4D but the smooth transition between the different mesh shapes is the most difficult part it seems. They must have several rigs combined that have a kind of feedback loop implented to read positions of the other rigs to blend them seamlessly. Truly great work but certainly not impossible in C4D. But I agree hierarchy would be a nightmare.

And there seems to be a whole team from two studios working on that stuff as stated in the credits. This is not as simple as “I have to learn Maya” to do it.


#18

Respectfully, I must disagree that "Talent, time and evolution, has “nothing to do with software.”

Clearly the Maya rig in question is the result of some highy advanced"Wizard Class" Maya riggers.:bowdown:

However the core features and scalabilty of the software used is a determing factor when such “Wizard Class” operators are choosing a package.

It becomes a question of Does this software offer the ability to acheive this or that objective in a straight forward,efficient manner for a busy pipeline.
or can this objective be achieved in this app with some really clever “workarounds” to see if it is technically possible.
IMHO ,With Character animation in C4D, too many things
( Lipsinc,Ragdoll physics ,mocap retargeting, Dynamic clothing) require solutions that are more in the category of clever “workarounds”
with some (such as Dynamic Clothing on a moving person):cry:
,not worth the effort at all with the native tool set.


#19

The talented people at Meindbender are such an inspiration. Their pirate video made me sit up and take notice of Maxwell Render. The first time I saw it was at a distance and I thought it was stop motion for a second.

I love the rigging video. It makes me want to animate their character soooo bad. It really lights that fire of character animation again. So much work, but so rewarding.

[vimeo]22342702[/vimeo]


#20

Maybe such complex character animation stuff could be more easy in C4D if we have some plugins for it. But it seems like there are not that much plugins out there especially for character animation.

This is what i miss in C4D:

  • realistic skin deformation
  • better muscle system (or the ability to just use own shapes which deforms the skin)
  • Viewport Speedboost / Deformator Objects Speed up. Currently they are too slow to work with them :frowning: