Modo and Silo


#21

You may be waiting a while.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showpost.php?p=1584860&postcount=18


#22

JDex: Yeah, I’ve read all that stuff regarding the demo. It really suuuucks. It’s not like I have the money to get Modo now even if I wanted to (which I think I do!) It’s a shame I can’t try it out now though. Maybe once I get the money there’ll be a demo available… or maybe I’ll just go for it. Doesn’t seem like anyone is regretting doing the same.:slight_smile:


#23

Thanks for the info JDex. Good to know.

Now I know that I will just have to wait for a demo in the future.

This is why is good to have other 3D software. No rushing involved.
At least in my case.

Good for the folks that beta tested. If they like…, they buy…, because they tried.

When I get to try the demo, then I can decide if I want to buy.

:slight_smile:


#24

two words:

mouse customization


#25

You can customize almost everything in SILO-- mouse buttons, menu configuration (you can even make your own buttons), keyboard shortcuts, display colors, etc.


#26

thats what i am talkin’ bout.


#27

Is there support for mouses with more then 3 buttons? I don’t even own mice with less then 5 and would love to see better support for that.


#28

well that is not the same customization modo offers. it is nice that silo is offering some form of customization, bur naturally as it was reflected in the price, modo offers more com plicated customization than silo does. But again, that is why one is cheaper than other.
i think in a way comparing modo to silo is comparing lightwave to wings3d. wings3d is an awesometool for free and can offer some more robust tools than lightwave. but that does not make it necessarily better than lightwave in terms of overall package. but if you have lightwave you may consider using wings3d as a compliment to lightwave rather than competing them .


#29

I’m more interested in whether Modo ships with modeling tools that are
radically different/better from what’s available elsewhere, but I guess that’ll have
to wait until the demo is out.
theyre not any different than most applications. theres nice tools in modo for sure,
but mostly stuff to do with interface, and ways of editing geometry.
but as far as TOOLS go. its missing a lot. atleast stuff that i would expect to make
a modeller revolutionary… or evolutionary. to me it has a lot of the really old
stuff from LW that hasnt been taken too far besides having added ngons and a few
other things.

some of these things could be in modo in one form or another but i hope that im correct with most my investigations so far. if im wrong. please say so and give examples. so we could learn from this :slight_smile:

simple tools

no slide,
no proper edgering split ( like in mirai/ cinema/ wings/ max, houdini, maya/
xsi…etc ). the only split there is doesnt currently support non uniform splits.
so it has to be a perfect ring to split. nothing fancy. for that you have to use
the edge slice tool. which could be a little better imo. like automatically detect
where parallel edges are and be able to use an option to split a perfect ring. or
being able to slide your edge cuts dynamically while using that node. or giving you
a preview of what you will get with the next split… without having to ever click on
an edge where you want to split…while snapping to the nearest vert/edge that you
can connect to.
loop slice doesnt cut it. and should be replaced with another tool that is closer to
what other apps have… with the option to close/complete loops ( if its able to ).
along with the options that it already has. because its not bad… but its far from
what we need. lets just say we select 2 parallel vertical edges, and an edge that
is connected to the second but its horizontal… then we press connect and we want a
path through those edges. not possible with the current tools.

modifier keys
another thing that is lacking in modo at the moment is the lack of modifier keys.
this way i could map the move/tweak tool to a key like just “ctrl” or mouse button
and i could automatically tweak things on the fly. instead of having to bring up the
element move tool, and tweak from there. since we spend about 99% of our time moving
points, this should be the most accessible option, and should work with comfort in
mind.
also being able to make ANY key a modifier, could allow me to use tools without ever having to drop them. dropping would be done by letting go of a key. so if i bevel. i would hold B while dragging my mouse to the side, and when i let go it would be applied and i could move onto my next tool

Better selection mechanism
one thing i would like to see for tweak/move is to be able to have modo
automatically select elements that are closest to the cursor. this way i dont have
to be always 100% dead on to select smething. and makes hard to get to verticies
easier to reach ( lets say that im editing the profile of the character, the
application will grab the closest vert/edge/face to the cursor and i will be able to
manipulate from there. right now the process of selecting is much too slow to make
moving points efficient/comfortable. this is a MUST. if people like to select things
exactly, it wouldnt interfere with their way of working, but at their convenience if
they click a bit off a vert they meant to, they wont get the action center moving
with nothing else happening. instead they will see their vert moving how they originally
intended.

PRE Highlighting
pre-highlight selections is a must. especially with tweak. this way if the
application selects the nearest point to the cursor, you will know exactly what you
will grab without having to do any trial and error. without this, we spend time
making mistakes and selecting not what we think we will ( ever tried element move
and you selected poly instead of vert like you thought you would? happens more
often than you think.)

speed
speaking about speed… even on a quadro fx 3000, the app moves much faster than it
does on my geforce 5600, but comparing to silo… … modo runs slower on the quadro
than silo on my geforce. so thats saying a lot. i think it could be optimized a
crapload. mainly the transformation tools, they feel very sluggish. because on silo
you have almost no lag once so ever. while even editing a point on a box feels
slower. tumbling in modo is fine and speedy. but transformation is where the problem
lies.

stuff
you cant work one tool after another properly in modo. for example. grab one edge
and do a loop slice now right after we use that we go to the edge slice tool. the
problem with this is… is that if you have a selection made you will only be able to
modify on the selection itself. so you have to drop selection every time you want to
work on tools like edge slice. even then,you will have edge slice not behaving
properly at times, because sometimes it will decide that it doesnt want to slide on
some edges that your making cuts to.

geometry management
i was also expecting better geometry management tools within modo. and better morph
management tools. right now you can make 100000 morphs and selection sets and
whatnot but you cant organize them in ways you want to. like placing specific morphs
into directories ( like a directory for Eye morphs ). i still think mirai has the
cleanest setup for this area. where you can control
sensitivity/visibility/shading/grouping/object management as a whole/ and selection
sets… of each object within one simple interface that looks like the “mesh list”
and or “info & statistics”. but it just works better in mirai. i would love it if it
was just an opinion. but when comparing what i can do in both apps within just those
editors im comparing. theres not much comparrison.

Symmetry
multiple symmetry tools like in zbrush. what if i made changes ( moved a few verts
)to one side of the model and i want to make the other side symmetrical. i press a
key and it should copy the data to the other side automatically. also. it should
work in a way that it can average both sides… but it will only keep what i have
selected as it is… and copy that stuff to the other side of the model ( my
selection will remain untouched.

Context/smart UI
for a modeller that claims its for everyone, what about people that like context
sensitive menus. so we see only tools that are available to us for the modes that we
are in. lets say i selected a few edges i want to slice. i could right click on
scene or something, and it would automatically show only my edge based tools, or any
tools that will work from my selection. or what if i wanted to pour options into
those menus, so if i left click i just get a straight tool usage ( like slicing
edges through the middle for example and drop tool right after.), if i middle click
something else would be executed ( like slicing through middle but with slide
enabled right after ). etc. these types of options would be useful for pie menus
too. im sure i will get some comment to investigate forms, but after playing with
them for a while, i see that it will be overly complex to build these things i
mentioned. so id rather have some more developed tools from the developer on this
subject to make the process of building complex UIs a little easier.

Morphs
back to morphs. im surprised that after 4 years of absolutely no development on my
copy of mirai that no other developer has even come close to having morphs as
functional to the set that is found in it ( or dare i say, go beyond it )
no rotational morphs
no way to organize morphs.
its way too easy to destroy morphs that you are working on. after making edits to a
morph and leaving it for another it should ask you if you would like to apply
changes to so and so morph. i know its slower to do so, but since it takes a long
time to build morphs, having a safety option for this particular area is very
important.
being able to use multiple morphs with different amounts from one node. and not
apply them one by one and having to drop each morph node we add in between… its
very important to see how all morphs play together.
one workflow could be that you have one morph selected. and are working on it. then
you load up a morph node to see how other morphs apply themselves to it. you could
mix a few morphs and if you dont like what you see, press cancel and youll be thrown
right back to what you were doing ( editing the morph )
not being able to morph one object to another. ( im guessing the background morph
tool does this? but its really not the simplest easiest tools to figure out right
off the bat, so ill pretend its not there. ) i know having all morphs embedded is
nice, but when your working with a number of artists and theyre sending you morphs,
you want to attach them to your working model, somehow.

Falloff showing on mesh/ from selection+ morphs continued
having a falloff show on the viewport around the selection is another must. with all
the “interactive” modes that we have. it still doesnt show us a clear idea of what
we will get exactly or which EXACT verts we will translate from our current
selection. this also plays a strong part for morphing. i want to make a selection
and grow the falloff until i reach a specific vertex, and only then apply a morph to
the selection ( with the falloff, obviousely ). this way i dont need to carefully
and “interactively” place the gizmo and keep doing trial and error in order to get
what i want. the interactive tools are nice. but for proper/complex facial animation
most of the time it gets in the way more than it doesnt. this is also killer with
tweaking. because its more accurate than the radius we have at the moment. this
should be adjustable by the scroller as well, or something like alt+ drag, so we
could get a more precise falloff.

transparency
very useful when matching up models. ( say you got a scan.
and a final topology for models that you need to match up with. :wink:
using background wireframe and seeing your current objects
wireframe makes too much of a mess, so transparency makes it much cleaner to do.
or even working on stuff like teeth. make model transparent, and unselectable,
and work on teeth

constraints
doesnt work on everything. for example. i make a few verts ontop of my model,
but when connect them by faces and or extend edges,… these edges dont
travel ontop of the model. ( theyre no longer constrained.).

Shared Hotkeys

Smart keys that do different things based on selections. this way i could pack a few different functions to one key depending what i select. like for example. i could have a creation key that does one hit wonder tools ( and automatically drops ). like if i select an edgeloop that surrounds a hole, it will fill it. if i select 2 verts and i press key, itll connect em. if i select a ring of edges and press space itll split em, if i select a perfect loop that key could bevel by 50% etc etc. all in one key. and it will do different things based on what i select. maybe this could be done by scripting. not sure. but im no script type guy, so ill leave this for someone else. but this is a huge workflow booster because your time spent on hotkey searching is cut by a huge lot.

[EDIT]

Edge Distance bevel ( for a lack of a better word )

this bevel would only bevel edges until it meets the next set of edges and will stop there. this limit would be there so we could not destroy meshes so easily. check wings 3d for this feature. its what makes bevel worth using, because your not worried about ever destroying your geometry.

Pre Highlighting Bonus features- B.I.G

Being able to execute tools on pre highlighted element. this would let you do tweaks on the fly and execute commands without ever selecting single elements.

Camera perspective ( real world and not percentage )

when a director comes by your shoulder and asks to see how your model will look with the same lens as the output camera, you should be able to easily use the same settings as your camera is using ( i get asked this one often ) currently the percentage is a huge minus for film usage.

theres more but these are probably the most lacking tools/
functions i can think of at the moment.

i see a lot of potential in this app, since at its core its very customizable,
but it also needs refinement to be something really special.
and definitely some core tools that most modellers use in their
modelling workflows today.
hopefully we will see these really soon in modo.
because i would like to use it for some large scale models.


#30

Thanks for the review, ambient-whisper! Makes me feel better about not buying yet, lol. Again, I guess I’ll be waiting for a demo… or maybe v1.5-2.0 when they work on some of this stuff a bit. It definitely sounds like it has a lot of potential, but it’s strange that they’re lacking in certain tools that are available everywhere else. :slight_smile:


#31

Its nice to get to some thoughts about Modo from a Mirai user. I was thinking about buying Modo, but from what AW, post i’ll hold back until Luxology makes most of those changes,which are mirai centric. Most of the modeling related related issue AW mention, i use alot in Mirai and is a must have, if i was to buy.

I just hope is open minided enough to understand the needs of Mirai users, and adopt and implement.


#32

Yes the review is appreciated AW, no pre highlighting, no nearest vertex/edge selection, no bounded tools. Well i wont be investing in modo i think and i dont really see them learning the lessons of mirai / wings.

I really dont see the evolution in this product.


#33

i wasnt saying this was mirai specific at all :slight_smile: just things i found in other modellers that are nice features. mirai just happened to have a few of those.


#34

Awesome roundup, Martin!

Hope Luxology now irons out all the things you said - The interface looks very cool, now it’s all about tools and workflow…


#35

I gotta disagree there.

care to remember Silo 1.0? , XSI 1.0 , Maya 1.0? they were all failures if we think like you do now. Its more important to put the foundation you can build on right than putting the tools in. Now that that step is out of the way i am %110 sure luxology will listen to their customers requests and respond accordingly. That might also explain the lack of demo in this case.


#36

That’s true. However, why would I want to get in on the ground floor of an app that’s obviously missing important tools while there are other choices out there? Unless Luxology offers early adopters something for it, say, a free upgrade whatever that version might be.


#37

well they are offering a pricecut to early buyers , and a lw users discount. pretty cool stuff if you ask me and a good time to get on board.

But i agree with you , i am very very interested in knowing the upgrade scheme also.


#38

Very true, hell i would buy it right now, if i know i can get a free upgrade to the next version. Even knowing that some of those Mirai/Wings/Nendo features are missing. Also if i knew they were going to add those feature in the next version…but maybe thats asking for too much…or is it?

But Luxology needs to show some love for Mirai! If they listen to there customers, as well as Silo does, as far as implementing features…then they should do in the industry. :smiley:


#39

You should check out C4D R9, it has most of what you mentioned Modo should have. It also has a HUD feature that you can add tools and stuff too, almost like the Tool Pipe in Modo.

Cheers,


#40

i think some of us are missing some part of the big picture. it seems like you think that 90% of the tools that are needed for modelling is missing in modo. everything is there except maybe max 3 important, and 5-10 essential tools. compared to what modo is and can be it is not that bad, it is a low number. and people already made models with what is available in modo, that proves the point that modo offers most of the important stuff. i am a lightwave and maya user, i love both tools, and i know both tools. i personally can tell you that modo has everything both tools are offering in terms of modelling and putting more on top of it. yes a slide tool is really really important, but fully attachable and configurable falloff tools are quite important too. now maya does not have does, is it a bad tool? not really depends on what you need. i think it is too early too evaluate what really sux in modo and what not, and and i am sure luxology would welcome all kinds of critics. i personally would like to see people talk about modo after they model some stuff in it, then they would have full experience with it.
for example lightwave does not even have edges or moving scaling along normals at all (i have not used 8) . and it is one of the best modelling software out there