Maya 8.5 Sun/Sky Rendering Bad

[Kabab]

This is what it all comes down to. Some people need the simplicity and photographic quality of Maxwell Render, while some people need the flexibility and animation power of mental ray. Both do their jobs well. We can want Maxwell to be faster and want mental ray to be easier and that’s fine. It’ll just take time in both cases.

I don’t agree…

It is possible to make Mental Ray easier as has been proven with things like ImageStudio and these arch viz shaders.

The question is do you want it simpler? if you talk to a render TD they are going to want to have it exposed as possible which makes it inherently complex, if you speak to an Architect or a designer they will want it simple as possible.

The problem we see today is a tool like Maya used to be a specialized tool which was used by people with associated skills, now its used in more markets by people who’s primary job may not be rendering but want to / need to produce a nice image.

10 years ago how architects produced CG renderings?

[mcyorian]

is still mental ray just like 10 years ago?.. wow maybe they need an update urgent! :twisted:

i mean… MR is great…but too “ODD” style and full of settings and mathematical stuff!
not all the world wants a thing like that!, so maybe mentalray must to put a button to let the user decide which mode to use, like a “nero” style.

a button to change the “simply and easy magic button” interfase or toggle to the " rich and full of settings and “Ph physical mathematics nerds experts” mode.

ha ha ha …im just kiddin´

greetings all!

[Kabab]

Yeah but thats not Mental Images problem their technology is there.

Its all about how other vendors interface into it…

Once again look at the ImageStudio Vs Maya comparison.

Mind you if you look back at the version of Maya you will notice that the amount of presets etc for Mental Ray have been increasing, so they are trying to accomdate but you can only do so much within given times and budgets.

[aabed]

i have realised that the sun color is always white which i tried to change its color but it remained white ! is there is a way that i can make the sun ligh color to be light orange for example ???

[Jozvex]

I don’t agree…

It is possible to make Mental Ray easier as has been proven with things like ImageStudio and these arch viz shaders.

The question is do you want it simpler? if you talk to a render TD they are going to want to have it exposed as possible which makes it inherently complex, if you speak to an Architect or a designer they will want it simple as possible.

Hmm I don’t believe that complexity and simplicity have to be mutually exclusive. Look at Maya itself, most of its buttons and menus activate MEL scripts. This is great because it means you can save time and don’t need to learn MEL to use Maya effectively. Technically minded people can still dive right in and script away if they like. Adding user friendliness to Maya’s MR integration doesn’t have to remove any advanced functionality. Similarly with Maxwell you can choose to only use premade materials, lights etc, or you can go as far as measuring your own BSDF data to plug into it.

[ivobakker]

After rethinking a bit iguess a script to fix old scenes would look something like this.
It takes all color attributes with no connections and applys a gamma correction.

    string $shadingGroups[]= `listSets -type 1`;
    float $gamma = 1/2.2;
    string $shadingGroup;
    for($shadingGroup in $shadingGroups){
    	if(!`objExists $shadingGroup`)
    		continue;
    	string $material = basenameEx(`connectionInfo -sfd ($shadingGroup+".surfaceShader")`);
    	if($material==""||!`attributeExists "color" $material`)
    		continue;
    	print("Setting up override for: "+$material+"
");			
    	string $plug = ($material+".color");
    	if(!`connectionInfo -isDestination $plug`){		
    		float $color[3] = `getAttr $plug`;
    		print("color: "+$color[0]+" "+$color[1]+" "+$color[2]+"
");
    		string $gammaNode = `shadingNode -asUtility gammaCorrect`;
    		addAttr -ln isGammaOverride -at bool $gammaNode;
    		setAttr -e -keyable true ($gammaNode+".isGammaOverride");
    		setAttr ($gammaNode+".isGammaOverride") 1;
    		setAttr ($gammaNode+".value") -type double3 $color[0] $color[1] $color[2];
    		setAttr ($gammaNode+".gamma")  -type double3 $gamma $gamma $gamma;
    		connectAttr -f ($gammaNode+".outValue") $plug;
    	}			
    }
    	
    

[b]

OLD POST
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Conclusion[/b]

     The magic button to fix old WRONG scenes should probably look something like:

        magicCommand(){
        	for(all fileNodes as fileNode){
        		fileNode.gamma = renderGlobals.gamma;
        		fileNode.swatch.gammaCorrect = false;
        	}
        	for(all materials as material){
        		material.specular *= renderGlobals.specularMultiplier;
        		material.swatch.gammaCorrect = true;
        		material.viewport.gammaCorrect = true;
        	}
        	renderGlobals.gamma = 1/2.2;
        }
         

     here's a script that does fix gamma for textures.
   It connects a gamma node on all outColor attributes of all file nodes.
   Then it creates a gamma attribute on the file node and connects it to the gamma node.

         string $files[] = `lsType file`;
         for($file in $files){
         	if($file == "<done>")
         		break;
         	$gammaNode = `shadingNode -asUtility gammaCorrect -n ($file+"_gamma")`;
         	string $colorConnections[] = `listConnections -p true ($file+".outColor")`;
         	for($cConn in $colorConnections){
         		connectAttr -f ($gammaNode+".outValue") $cConn;
         	}
         	connectAttr -f ($file+".outColor") ($gammaNode+".value");
         	if (`attributeExists "gamma" $file`) {
         			  print "Using existing attribute
";
         	  } else {
         			  addAttr -ln gamma -at double $file;
         		setAttr -e -keyable true ($file+".gamma");
         	  }
         	
         	setAttr ($file+".gamma") (1/2.2);
         	connectAttr -f ($file+".gamma") ($gammaNode+".gammaX");
         	connectAttr -f ($file+".gamma") ($gammaNode+".gammaY");
         	connectAttr -f ($file+".gamma") ($gammaNode+".gammaZ");
         }
         

     but of course the right thing is to do it right from the beginning.
     would be nice to be able to fix texture gamma on all file nodes globally at rendertime tough.

     /Smaragden

Thank you for the scripts, i works fine. Only disadvantage is when you added more objects in the scene and you run the script again i put an extra node on the ones that allready have it.
I am not that good at scripting, but how can I make the script so it will look if it allready had the node or not ?

[MaNdRaK18]

… so maybe mentalray must to put a button to let the user decide which mode to use, like a “nero” style.

a button to change the “simply and easy magic button” interfase or toggle to the " rich and full of settings and “Ph physical mathematics nerds experts” mode.

ha ha ha …im just kiddin´

Maybe You’re kiddin’, dude, but You actually can’t be more right!
That’s actually best way to go in design of ‘any’ software, and so with mental ray!

Great flexibility ‘under the hood’, but You actually don’t have to unlock it if You are not interested in it, and just get most decent results from the default settings.

That would be ‘dream come true’ :buttrock:

[mcyorian]

yeah!.. maybe the mental ray labs must to listen all ppl here!..
it would be cool and practice if maya had both interfaces for mental ray, one just like image studio (for noobs and ppl that loves simplicity) and the old native mental ray mayas´s interface (for experts)

[ghostlake114]

:sad: I agree that mentalray still force us to learn physic and math days by days :bounce: . That s great If we have a good understanding to the program, but not all case… A more friendly design to user will save a lot of time learning MR.

===

I could give a example:

Man in using Vray, activate Irradiance map, and wow, they got it, tweak option, test, got result,test, got result…

We in MR, activate FG, and the first thing we read is: what is FG, how do it work, how do we diagnose it, what ray will be traced, not be traced now in MR, haha

Just kidding too, but that s what MR now

[cpan]

Man in using Vray, activate Irradiance map, and wow, they got it, tweak option, test, got result,test, got result…

We in MR, activate FG, and the first thing we read is: what is FG, how do it work, how do we diagnose it, what ray will be traced, not be traced now in MR, haha

vray, mentalray, its exactly the same more or less… heck in mr 3.5 you can control
the FG with only 3 settings heh (and none of them scene size dependant, meaning
you can use roughly the same settings in every scene and get same nice results)

if you want fast renderings and good quality lower density to 0.2, turn the interp points
to 20 (or more for smoother, cleaner illumination) and FG accuracy (rays) to 50-100 and
thats it How much easier do you want it to be heh?

the main thing to turn mentalray into a better archviz renderer is the tonemapping,
wich hopefully will be developed further by mi or francesca or any 3rd party guys
or, even nicer, by Alias, directly on the framebuffer, with interactive settings change ala
maxwell

cheers!

[bluemagicuk]

i have realised that the sun color is always white which i tried to change its color but it remained white ! is there is a way that i can make the sun ligh color to be light orange for example ???

mia_physicalsky — change the r unit conversion
mia_exposure_simple ---- play with the gamma and the gain if you are looking for a sunset look

[wurp]

MasterZap: If I understand this correctly you simply apply a gamma of 2.2 to a lens-shader, and also apply a gamma of 0.45 to the textures to avoid them getting washed out? This should apply to LDR environmentmaps as well right? From what I understand HDR refmaps are the exception as they look “right” with a gamma of 2.2 and too dark with a gamma of 1.0?

What I dont get is what it means that a monitor has a gamma of 2.2, does this mean that what you see on the screen becomes darker or brighter than what the actual input is? I’ve heard that a gamma of 2.2 can mean that its either darker or brighter depending on how you look at it, but that the “correct” way to look at it is to think of a gamma above 1.0 as darker, and a gamma below 1.0 as brighter, although in most cg apps its the other way around.

edit: after a little search I found this webpage: http://www.bberger.net/rwb/gamma.html
It seems I was right in thinking a monitor gamma of 2.2 means things display darker than they are, as it sais in the article an input-value of 50% means you get an output-value of 18%, I can see why you would want to brighten your images by setting the lens-shaders gamma to 2.2 to compensate for this, what I dont get is why for example if you have a gradient on a monitor, and adjust the gradients gamma to 0.45 (darker) it looks more linear than without the color-correction, if the monitor makes things darker, would you not expect that if you brighten the gradient with a gamma of 2.2 you end up with a linear result? Im still confused about this after reading some more webpages.

btw here is a timelapse I rendered in xsi with the mia_material and the physical sky+sun and multiframe FG, rendered with a gamma of 2.2:
http://www.ericknelson.com/wurp/mr_physical_sky_compressed.mov

[Sphere1]

wurp, it has all to do with how we, as humans, see colour (non linearly). If you read this thread, you should have seen that on page 2 there is a link which explains most of what you are asking.

[lunat1k]

…

edit: after a little search I found this webpage: http://www.bberger.net/rwb/gamma.html
It seems I was right in thinking a monitor gamma of 2.2 means things display darker than they are, as it sais in the article an input-value of 50% means you get an output-value of 18%, I can see why you would want to brighten your images by setting the lens-shaders gamma to 2.2 to compensate for this, what I dont get is why for example if you have a gradient on a monitor, and adjust the gradients gamma to 0.45 (darker) it looks more linear than without the color-correction, if the monitor makes things darker, would you not expect that if you brighten the gradient with a gamma of 2.2 you end up with a linear result? Im still confused about this after reading some more webpages.

I can’t get the part with the gradient also. Even after reading the xsi-blog article. When I have a gradient (0.0-1.0) what looks like 50% gray is actually ~18%. So to make the gradient appear more linear I’m putting on a 2.2 gamma correction. To my surprise I get an even brighter gradient. When I put a 0.455 gamma it looks fine. I think I’m holding the stick at the wrong end, but I can’t get trough it.
Here’s an image to illustrate my (fusion) confusion:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/devalvatora/sRGB.jpg

[mcyorian]

Maxwell render plugin for maya 8.5 is RELEASED!..

sorry mental…

[Saturn]

I can’t get the part with the gradient also. Even after reading the xsi-blog article. When I have a gradient (0.0-1.0) what looks like 50% gray is actually ~18%. So to make the gradient appear more linear I’m putting on a 2.2 gamma correction. To my surprise I get an even brighter gradient. When I put a 0.455 gamma it looks fine. I think I’m holding the stick at the wrong end, but I can’t get trough it.
Here’s an image to illustrate my (fusion) confusion:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v195/devalvatora/sRGB.jpg

that’s not surprising actually because you are applying twice your transformation.
the gamma node of 2.2 and the one done by your monitor profile.

That’s why you get a brighter gradient.

To make it simple :

• apply a tonemapper on your lens shader
• Color correct all your texture ( I mean color NOT displacement, normal or bumpmap ) by a gamma of 0.45 ( 1/2.2 ).

Voila

[floze]

Maxwell render plugin for maya 8.5 is RELEASED!..

sorry mental…

[rant]
There’s no point to antagonize. If you didnt get the difference between a production ready renderer (at least for a studio like ours), and an admittedly simple (thus beautiful) still image renderer - hold back your horses 'til maxwell reaches frame rates like mental ray, if you set up your scene smart enough. Which might or might not happen in a few years, the first or the latter.
[/rant]

[mcyorian]

of course they are so different!, im just pushing the ppl of mental ray to make it mor simple!

[Sorath]

i need your help…

i’ve made a simple scene with hdri and fg and the wood texture on one of the link sides postet here.

for first, do i have to take a tonemapper to get results!? (because saturn wrote it - and which one do i take for best? - link?).

here the renders for comparison.
what would you choose - the corrected image or the image made with mr-built in framebuffer (cause this is lookin more nice to me! - but other users here didn’t got such results).

no correction:

corrected with gamma node:

corrected only with built in framebuffer:

the texture for comparison is on xsi blog: http://www.xsi-blog.com/archives/133
can someone give me his opinion? - i would really appreciate it

[LuisTelesforo]

i think you ara missing the point here