Master and Servant 2D Entry: Linda Bergkvist


#1381

Linda, congratulations on finishing such a wonderful piece…
Forgive me I havent read all 90+ pages, so I dont know if my question has been answered.
I was wondering if you could give me incite into the the technique you used to create the background, it almost looks like a texture of some sort, but is there some combination of brush strokes and blurring…I dont know , but I’ve been looking at it for a while and cant figure it out…
beautiful piece…hope you win…


#1382

::bangs head on rusty poison nails::

the only thing i will apoligize for is hurting linda’s feelings. i will not take back a single word of what i said and i stand by it to the end.

every single one of you who are saying its “too late” and “useless” to post this now, an image is NEVER “too late” for an honest crit. never. NEVER EVER. here is why: a crit is an individual’s view on the things they think are done well and not so well. this thought process will pop up in everyone’s heads when looking at an image regardless of whether they want to or not. granted, it is not a requirement that those thoughts should be shared, but this is a forum where the point of posting an image is so that it can recieve a critique. i explained clearly why i did not post this earlier. there is absolute value in posting a crit after a deadline is through. the duration of a competition does not determine a set time for improvement. every minute is time for improvement.

i re-read all of the posts over and over again trying my best to see where this arrogance was coming from. maybe because i am the one who said these things, i can hear how it was meant to be said. as a result, i simply cannot see the arrogance… i honestly meant to point out things that i thought could be improved…

while we are on the subject, i beg you to listen real close. there is NO OTHER WAY to tell someone “i think these things are wrong” other than “i think these things are wrong.” no matter how you candy coat your words, youre saying the same thing! its like stabbing someone with a sword versus stabbing someone with a chocolate covered sword. if what you people crave is a chocolate covered sword, fine… but you will not get one from me. i will be honest and straightforward. an artist MUST, i repeat, MUST be able to take negative comments thrown at their work, no matter how harsh. if one feels the comments are true, then admit it and address them. if they are not, then why on earth should feelings be hurt? irgnore them and move on. comdemn me for whatever you want, but do not comdemn me for being honest.

i believe that the crits were 100% in relation to this painting and others by her. look at both the current image and this one:
http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=231684

i will state my issue with these once more:
if i take photographs of the people she used for the models, cut/pasted them, erased the edges so they blend with whatever it was pasted on, and change only the color… then the image would be replicated. where is the artist’s interpretation? what have they brought to the table that is new? where is the originality? what seperates this from a photographic composite? where is the artist’s touch? most of all, why should i look at this instead of a photographic composite that looks exactly the same? what makes this a painting?

when making an image for oneself, anything goes. no crit is even needed… but when making an image for an audience, the main goal of that image is to get a message across to the viewers. although you can do what you love and do whatever you want to the image, if the choices you make distract from the overall goal of getting that message across to the view… then the image has failed. it might be beautiful, it might be incredibly rendered, the individual parts may be extravagant… but if the goal is not achieved, then as an image, it has failed. no question about it. yes it is true that complexity is great, and a shallow image is shallow. images that make the viewer dig deep and find new meanings within are fantastic… but that doesnt mean an image should confuse a viewer. ever. unless that is the intent, of course.

with that in mind… narration? no, i do not believe so. if all of you forget that this were a competition wth “master and servant” as the main theme, then i will bet money that all of you wouldnt have a single clue as to what was going on in linda’s image. lets say you walked into a room and saw this painting with no preconcieved notions. what do you see? what is going to make you realize that the theme is master and servant? what even lets you know who is the master and who is the servant? it could be a witch casting a spell on an innocent victim. it could be a royal guard member rescuing a princess who has passed out in the forest. it could be a dryad or spirit trying to posess a helpless victim. it could be just about anything. nowhere in this image is there a concrete clue to let us know that it is nature and humanity, let alone “master and servant.” this piece is poorly narrated in regards to the intent, and i remain steadfast in my conviction. some may have gotten the point on first glance, but not me. i thought of a million other scenarios, and when i scrolled down to read what the story was, i was completely wrong. like i said, complexity is great, but confusion is an everlasting bane.

you want a well narrated piece? rendering aside, linda’s image of the girl stabbing the mirror is a perfect example.

http://www.cgtalk.com/showthread.php?t=231684

there is NO question that the girl is tortured by something. we are given a clue as to what is torturing her in the mirror. it is clear she is tired of dealing with whatever she is, and is being hurt deeply by those things. however, we are not given information as to WHO those faces are, WHY she is tortured, WHAT has happened to her, WHOSE blood that is, WHY the mirror reflects a different light… the list goes on. this image is a great example of a clear, well narrated story that is complex and deep, but with no confusion. compare it to the nature and humanity one. see the difference in narration?

as far as my image goes, be as harsh as you want. most likely, i will agree with just about everything said. the mistakes and lack of quality are clear even to me.

ps: those who claim it is not my place to tell linda she is “wrong”, then surely it isnt your place to tell me i am wrong.

also: why the HELL would i feel better than her…

ALSO: if students quit art school, they were never resolute to be an artist in the first place. it is their weakness and they simply cannot deal with it. no matter the hurdle, if it is what you love, you will break it down and move past it. if not, then you never loved it.

ARRG!!: linda is probably the most technically accomplished person on this forum, and one of the most accomplished i have seen this far on the net! of all people, she is the LAST one i want to see walk the path of a technical, retard artist. that is all. this is why i put my time into teling her this. it was not out of jealousy.


#1383

I think this will be the winning entry! Congratulations.


#1384

well, you can cut/paste people from photographs to most pictures, I guess the artist’s
touch in this one is that she painted them, as well as the straws and blood on the
other girl and the bugs n and snakes and mask and flowers and snakescalyskinthing
on the other… how’d you have done it ?

yea the pic can be confusing, I look at it and think it might be for example a master
giving her poisoned servant life force from the animals to overcome the poison

it could be whatever

yea, it ain’t as easy

but then again, i didn’t have a clue what that other pic had to do with
master and servant either, haha

yea i don’t see what made your first critic as bad as people here said, but
again I often hate critics too, even though I know they’re right, hehe.
The worst thing is when they jump out of the bushes suddenly and poop on you
and then you wanna take a shower but it’s in the middle of the workday and
you cannot :cry:

.


#1385

My little suggestion: stop this fighting, all this posts have a good point, even the flaming ones, hehe, let’s just read and meditate, we can always improve :slight_smile:


#1386

Hmm… though “someone” is already in my ignore list, I just can’t help seeing what “theories” is installed this time round… & to my surprise… well… no human is perfect… I’m starting to suspect those previous comments weren’t really meant to hurt intentionally… because that’s his/her personality… whatever…

This is just like a so-so driver whom probably just got his driving license, happens to come across another very much better skilled driver; with crowds around praising her how well she drove earlier. And this so so driver upon seeing such a situation, went up to the pro driver telling her off “kindly” about how she shouldn’t be contented & stop progressing (when she wasn’t) in her driving skills; after hearing only praises all the while. And in addition to that, continued criticising & giving “advices…” to the pro about what went wrong with her driving & how she should go about to drive even better…:rolleyes:

P.S. Sorry Linda, but I just can’t convince myself not to reply to it… this my last one… to it :slight_smile:


#1387

You know, when I started this post, I thought to myself, “I’ll quote what I think is unnecessary.” It’s amazing how much of your original message was retained!

You’re criticizing Belhaven for being rude and inconsiderate, but how are you any different? The wording of your message is completely malicious. Just because you’re being Linda’s White Knight in riding in to save her from mean comments doesn’t give you a license to be mean. And I believe that Linda can stand up for herself.

I think the part that struck the strongest chord was you specifically telling people to go to Belhaven’s work and to be snarky on it. Which, by the way, someone has. You don’t need to have a PhD in order to have an opinion. I am not an artist, and I retain the right to dislike, like, or comment on any work I see.

You demand an apology from Belhaven for his rudeness, but linguistically and tone-wise, I believe you were far ruder. I am disappointed with this forum’s ability to comprehend and digest comments.


#1388

Linda I hope you don’t mind me posting this sorry if I offend you.

Yes an image is never to late for an honest crit, but really, look at how much effort Linda has put into this piece, in a way your point is useless do you honestly think that Linda is going to change her image just to suit one person, you? Maybe if you had posted earlier like the others said Linda would have been able to take in the crit you were giving her, but to give her the crit now is just a waist of time don’t you think?

Well Linda has allready stated that she creates her images mainly for herself not just for her audience.

As most of us allready know, Linda likes to have hidden messages in her paintings, so why any difference for this one? I think it adds more depth to a piece more mystery, allows people to think up what they want, to use their imagination just as you did, when looking at a painting like this. You can’t tell me that you’ve never been to an art gallery and seen hundreds of paintings by some of the masters where you didn’t have a clue what was going on until you really took the time to study it or even read the inscription below the painting?


#1389

Take it easy guys, as much as I disagree with every point that has been made by Belhaven regarding Enayla’s work and artistic merits; which I can debate forever with him; I think he presented his argument in a very civilized manner, and very precisely. I think Linda has acknowledged the fact that when you are on a public arena and quite visible, you are vulnerable to the scrutiny of your work. In my opinion, he was too honest but too hard too, associated with bad timing.

Linda’s genius is still evolving, the fact that her work is being compared to the great Masters of Classicism is by itself a wonderful flattery.

Cheers :beer:

It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong!


#1390

I think you should all just chill dudes! i have painfully read all the pointless disscusion and i must say that no one is rigth or wrong here, these are just two different points of view (if very different indeed) you should put down your light sabers (or whatever) and as linda clearly puts it “agree to disagree” go on with your lives, and continue your great work.


#1391

I really hate to get involved with this, but just in case you feel like listening, you’re entirely wrong on that point. You could have, instead of setting out to find negative aspects of Linda’s work, stated that IF you were ever to attain her level of skill and were responsible for this work, that those were a few things you MIGHT have done differently. The key here I think is empathy, respecting and doing your best to understand those with whom you’re interacting.

Someone pointed out that there is a point where criticism is too harsh. That point is reached when someone loses sight of doing their best to honestly assess the persons ability and achievement, both the good and the bad, and proceeds to focus only on the negative and things that might or might not really need any improvement.

Learning to communicate criticisms is a hard thing to learn, and I as well had to learn it the hard way.


#1392

I’m not usually one to jump in with an some intellectually massive and “love to hear my self talk” type of critique, but after reading the first comment from Belhaven that set off this flurry of responses, I just couldn’t resist…

Belhaven, in my opinion…(and just to remind ALL struggling artists out there)…everybody has one…your comments on Linda’s work are contradictory and shallow to say the least.

Your words:

“but when making an image for an audience, the main goal of that image is to get a message across to the viewers.”

To touch so many viewers…(to my knowledge, Linda has the most from this forum) is to achieve the goal of the challenge! And that IS the goal of ALL art at it’s core, and that is to move people, to make people FEEL something…consider your own feeling when writing your well-intentioned crit… good or bad in your opinion, Linda’s work has moved you in some way, and in that way you have proven your comment about failure to be completely false.

There is something called “Felt Thought” which is an intuitive knowledge of something… All people possess it to a certain degree, in my opinion, artists more than anyone else. We understand the meaning of things, images, sounds, colors, symbols…etc, etc, without having to have them explained to us. Ambiguity in art is necessary for the audience…it allows participation and creates an atmosphere in which the artist and the viewer can come together and experience something of emotional value to both…

It’s like what Pollock said when asked when he knew when his painting was finished…

'How do you know when you’re done making love"

To get caught up in the critics’ folly of trying to sound important and further the advancement of the artist or the art, is like telling someone they’re not making love in the right way… preposterous!

Linda, your work is exquisite, as I’ve said before. Well could all sit and rip apart every piece of work ever created by any artist EVER. But in the end, all our efforts would be based on our own feeble, flawed and fearful humanity… and in doing so we would be denigrating the one thing that makes us as humans divine…our imperfection.

Peace.

my FUN!! M&S:


#1393

Ergo, you are unable to take into account anything that has been said so far, and I doubt you are actually taking into account her own personal comments made in this very forum… Read on.

a crit is an individual’s view on the things they think are done well and not so well. this thought process will pop up in everyone’s heads when looking at an image regardless of whether they want to or not. granted, it is not a requirement that those thoughts should be shared, but this is a forum where the point of posting an image is so that it can recieve a critique.

Now to the point of a critique with regards to CGTalk. What exactly have you said that can be considered constructive? Have you ventured to say anything about this particular piece that actually makes Linda feel good about it? So far everything I’ve read is negative and considered to be destructive. It’s like telling someone they’re no good and never will be, and the number of times I’ve been told this one myself is uncountable, yet I still make the effort in spite of this, not because of it. Once again, continual negativity is not constructive criticism.

i re-read all of the posts over and over again trying my best to see where this arrogance was coming from…

I suggest you look closer. It is apparent from the fact that you claim that, just because you have views on how a particular piece should look, that those views are universally held and therefore are correct. Art is a subjective medium, everyone has different views on what precisely defines art, and people prefer to work in their own way. You should not tell people that their way is wrong because of this subjectivity, and you sure as hell don’t tell someone that their choice of rendering is wrong (as you’ve listed above with your point about it being more like a collage of photographs) and not expect people to be upset by this… That really is arrogance in itself to presume that you are right in what you claim.

There is NO OTHER WAY to tell someone “i think these things are wrong” other than “i think these things are wrong.” no matter how you candy coat your words, youre saying the same thing!

There’s a huge difference between “I think these things are wrong” (venturing an opinion) and “these things are wrong” (stating said opinion as fact). Not to say that this is actually the exact wording you’ve used, but it’s been stated before that Linda is in disagreement with your opinions. She’s created this work in her way… It’s her baby as she’s said, not yours. You might not like the way it’s been executed, but that’s your opinion and is subjective. It is not universally shared nor should you continue to parade the same points as if you’ve the right to tell other people how to work.

i will state my issue with these once more:
if i take photographs of the people she used for the models, cut/pasted them, erased the edges so they blend with whatever it was pasted on, and change only the color… then the image would be replicated. where is the artist’s interpretation?

Once again, as I’ve stated above, this is all subjective. People have the right to define their image in the way they choose without someone telling them they are wrong. You might believe it is not the way forward, you may even hold the belief that it is widespread, but you are never 100% right, no matter how popular your opinion is. It is an opinion and nothing more. Art is never wrong, it is subjective as I’ve stated.

with that in mind… narration? no, i do not believe so. if all of you forget that this were a competition wth “master and servant” as the main theme, then i will bet money that all of you wouldnt have a single clue as to what was going on in linda’s image.

some may have gotten the point on first glance, but not me. i thought of a million other scenarios, and when i scrolled down to read what the story was, i was completely wrong.

To both quotes… I knew what was being conveyed. Just because you didn’t does not mean that the meaning isn’t there… And I have to say it again… Subjectivity. It’s not your place to say it’s wrong because you didn’t immediately grasp the point of the image without looking up the explanation (there are a lot of pieces on CGTalk like that, some in this very competition, but are they wrong because of it? No, it’s all subjective (I’m gonna get banned for using that word too much in a moment :wink: ) ).

ps: those who claim it is not my place to tell linda she is “wrong”, then surely it isnt your place to tell me i am wrong.

No, excuse me, but this is your defence of your posts? After panning her work without a single good thing to say about it, and now all you can say is “Well you shouldn’t be doing this”? I’m sorry but that alone is insulting.

also: why the HELL would i feel better than her…

I’m not sure anyone said you actually do feel better than her. You’d like to, that’s how you come across, and maybe your comments are an attempt to make that exact same thing happen.

linda is probably the most technically accomplished person on this forum, and one of the most accomplished i have seen this far on the net! of all people, she is the LAST one i want to see walk the path of a technical, retard artist. that is all.

I’ve quoted this one first before the message you conveyed below, even though it’s at the end of the post.

This is the first good thing I saw you write about her to date. However, you had to go ruin it by your opinion that technical artists are retarded. See above about subjectivity and why your comment about technical, retarded artists is so offensive not just to me, but to hundreds (if not thousands) of people around the world who will read it.

ALSO: if students quit art school, they were never resolute to be an artist in the first place. it is their weakness and they simply cannot deal with it. no matter the hurdle, if it is what you love, you will break it down and move past it. if not, then you never loved it.

That comment right there proves my point about arrogant presumption. Telling someone that if they quit a course because their teacher treated them badly by being negative all the time means that they don’t love their work?

How do you know what that’s all about?

For all you know, they might well have had such a traumatic experience from such an exchange that they actually fear to go to college/university in case they get shouted at, or told they are no good and never will amount to anything… That sort of thing is very destructive and soul-destroying, and I don’t care who you are, it will make a dent that in some cases might be big enough that a prospective artist will seek an alternative method of learning, anything as long as they get away from what they consider to be a bad experience.

And learning art does not mean your only recourse is to go to Art School… I hate that attitude and I always make it known that you don’t need to be formally taught in an academic environment… After all, many artists who we hold in high regard today taught themselves how to create art many years ago, before art became an academic subject at university.

For you to tell someone that they don’t love their work if they quit in such a scenario as described before is downright inconsiderate and presumtuous. You have no right to do that sir.


#1394

Cameron, that last paragraph was brilliant and states my point exactly! None of us are perfect and we’re all different! :thumbsup:


#1395

To add a lighter note, I just remembered this wonderful scene from a movie called Interstate 66:
Several critics are shown an exhibit of forgeries of some of histories greatest works of art. The critics came with the express intent of pointing out the negative aspects of these images, and spent a fair bit of time vociferating how crude, horribly done, and generally low quality all of the forgeries were.
When they leave, we find out that every one of the paintings was an original.


#1396

Oh my god, people, don’t do this to my thread.

I will not return and read more in here as it is really, truly tearing my heart out. I don’t want this to turn into a big argument. Please, please, please.

I started writing a long reply but I’m just not going to. I’m just begging you guys, don’t do this, I don’t want to return to the thread to find big arguments in here. I have no wish to spend my time arguing with Belhaven: I’ve started on a new piece and I’m working hard on it, and other pictures. If he wants to think I use a certain kind of technique or that I overuse my references - he’s welcome to go talk to the people I use as models and hear them laugh in his face if he claims the pictures look anything at all like them. I’ll gladly supply him with the email address to the girls in question - or actually, two girls and one boy as I’ve used several models, several references, and didn’t copy directly off of anything but used them as what they should have been: references. I put so much love and effort into this and I’m not particularly happy to find that all this effort comes down to someone wanting to pick it apart.

Like I said. I’m not having this argument. I’m not even going to go back to this thread at this point. I was anxious enough about the competition as it was and this isn’t exactly making it better.

Goodbye.


#1397

Empath, reminds of that experiment they did with monkey art…anyone remember that? You know, where they gave a bunch of monkeys paint and canvasas and let em rip…then the so called expert art critics were shown the work without them knowing who did it…they all raved about it, said it was the next great art movement, bla, bla, bla…

When the critics found out who painted it, they went bananas!!! HA HA!

mmmm…maybe those monkeys DID paint masterpieces, should have asked the monkey art critics…


#1398

Theres nothing like a popular thread with some great work to bring out the negative comments, eh? When the positivity gets too much for some, a bad comment emerges, and… it begins!

I dont have time to read the numerous essays on the matter, but it saddens me to see a talented artist getting upset over her thread being turned into a warzone. Its not right.

Everyone stop moaning - this is a place to appreciate artwork, not to whine about everything. If everyone disagrees with the ‘perpetrator’ then, let it be - each to their own, but let it show that the 1300+ replies prove that the vast majority of people love this pic.

Help us restore peace to the poor gal’s thread, bring in the cgtalk thread riot police to crack some heads :wip:


#1399

Sorry Linda, your right I think enough has been said, Perhaps I should have stayed out of it and not posted anything but I guess I can’t do much about it now.

Andy H: Indeed yes we need to return this to a happy thread :slight_smile:

Again sorry Linda, hope all goes well with your new piece, I’m looking forward to seeing it.


#1400

after reading linda’s post, i have nothing to say. i apoligize to everyone for making things so negative… most of all im terribly sorry to linda. the apology comes from the bottom of my heart, and i hope she and all of you believe me.