LW vs. Messiah

#42

Messiah render is very capable, once messiah supports quantity objects rendering (things like fur+hair) it will be complete for the price, at least for the workstation version. All the render engines out there are more expensive than messiah workstation.

Once you start using multiple applications (most of them are full apps) for various reasons, things get very complicated because all those tools are designed for standalone pipelines ie lightwave or maya, also it gets very expensive. I mean messiah+lightwave+maya+mentalray= alot of money.

If you want modular approach, which i myself am a fan of, we need modular tools. I do not think that maya or lightwave are designed to be modular( playing nice with others). Especially i know that newtek changes .lws format frequently nowadays. How can you trust modularity between these apps?.

My main complaint about messiah render is the way it handles triangles, it is very painful to look at rendered polygon triangles in messiah render. If you have alot of them it looks very bad(Good aa solves many sometimes thou) . To me once this is fixed i personally would use it in all the production needs i have. Otherwise one does not have time and precision to model everything in quads all the time. This is not absolute, but it would be nice to support smoothing of triangles in nicer fashion (i am talking about smoothing angles).

#43

Nice, and thanks for the comparison, Wegg! :slight_smile:

Can I ask why you choose to render with the classic camera in Lightwave? Is the perspective camera giving you even higher render times, or more black dots?

Wuv

#44

Very good points you brought up!!

#45

Perspective camera is suppose to render in less time.

#46

Perspective camera? Uhh. . . I had no idea. It looks like the Perspective camera renders transparency way better/faster than before. I also discovered that the PLD stuff was what was causing some of the quality issues. Switching to the Classic Reconstruction Filter resolved that but also negated any of the speed gains from the Perspective camera. :frowning:

An improvement though! In both speed and quality. Thanks for that tip.

(Man. People complain about Messiah’s settings being complex. . . Lightwave is . . . yea. . . )

I do agree with what Kursad said about the need for better quality on geometry that isn’t perfect. These purchased models are often created in Maya and the number of triangles and Ngons pose quite a challenge for Messiah’s renderer. Having to re-work those problem areas is a pain. Especially since these purchased models already have all their UVs and textures in place.

#47

Wegg,

did you try a test between the perspective camera in LW and Messiah? Probably Messiah is still faster…

#48

That is with the Perspective camera. Says it right in the info box. “Camera Type: Perspective” That with Classic, Enhanced Low made a much better image but its still 10:45 vs. Messiah’s 1:04.

#49

Why are you using radiosity on the LW jet render? Maybe I missed something?:shrug:

#50

Well because I wanted that “look” of it being light from both a directional “sun” light and the sky. I’m not about to start spinning lights “old school” style. And a big massive area light above the object wasn’t cutting it. Not when I get GI in Messiah for a fraction of the time.

#51

Yes I can see it is the perspective camera I’am not blind (maybe that did not come out right the way I phrased it in the thread), I was just wondering the comparison which you have stated and which is still a sizeable difference.

#52

I see. What radiosity settings were you using for the messiah render?

#53

Monte Carlo, 6 GI Samples, GI Depth 1, Auto Reduction on. By switching to the Classic AA setting I think I’m going to have to set the Messiah render to an AA level of 4. That added 35 seconds to the render time. But now the GI quality is kind of overkill. So if I lower that to 5. . . oops that increases render time. HA HA.

#54

It looks like I can switch between GI Samples of 6 -> 8 and keep the same render time. 9 slows things way down and 5 also slows things down. I guess its harder for the AA part of Messiah to deal with the extra noise. . . and with 9 its just more rays that is slowing it down. With no GI and just a directional light the plane renders in 12 seconds in Messiah and 9 seconds in Lightwave. So if your happy with renders that don’t have that GI “Look” Lightwave seems to be faster. As soon as you throw in raytraced soft shadows and GI. . . Messiah kicks butt.

#55

Thanks for the GI settings. As a new Messiah user it is very helpful. Godo to know I have such great renderign tools now. I too would like to have messiah handle triangles and Ngons better. Particuarly for metanurbs. Boom!! but I can work with it. Havign a lot of fun with it and posted my first messiah render in the 3d still gallery. Messiah is not an option for software used in the pulldown menu. Just thought I would let you know.

#56

Thanks for your time testing Wegg, very interesting to say the least…

#57

Wegg,

Thanks for checking that out!

Wuv

#58

My problem with the navigation system in Messiah is, that it still doesn´t feel right. The new sphere is more like a workaround. But I want a total replacement, not a workaround.
Just copy the behaviour and feeling of XSI or Maya edit sphere and Navigation 1:1. It can´t be that hard, can it?

The reason I left LW was the developer´s workaround mentality instead of fixing the problem itself. It seems they´re still working around things.
I hope that this will not be adopted by the Messiah team. It´s imo the wrong way.

#59

I think they over designed it. All the XSI and Maya ways of doing things are in there. But its under a cloud of all these other options that you have to keep in mind. (Right click, Left click, Where you grab it etc.) It used to be quite simple. But no one really “got it”. So then all these other coordinate systems were introduced to satisfy everyone and we get the mess we have now.

Personally I love Animation Master’s approach. Or even Wings3D for that matter. I hate Gizmoes. I should be able to see something, grab something. . . and have it move without me having to think about gimbal or world/parent/local. Christopher Lutz’s rig just gives me goosebumps. Its just so damn cool.

I’m taking my own thread off topic. :slight_smile:

I don’t like what is there as much as other programs I have used but I think those that don’t use Messiah because of that one reason are missing out on so much. . .

#60

I come from different packages background, and in a day to day work I use 2-3 different packages to do one thing. unifying the workflow is great when it’s there, as it doesn’t cut your mental workflow and just continue working. How ever most applications don’t work this way or don’t offer it. For me personnaly I never strive to change the navigation system nor the basic tranformation to match all the programs unless it was totally off. I try to keep the most basic things matched, orbit, pan and dolly matched to L, M and R.

Now I do agree that Messiah navigation system can get frustrating, along with a few quirks here and there, but the truth guys, so does every program, they all have their misfaults, and you all know that. True some programs lacking in severe areas and others are not that severe. And while I’m not having a problem dealing with program X or messiah for that matter in lets say navigation, it doesn’t mean everyone else is like me and yes it should be addressed at some point in time. But the truth is guys your missing on allot while waiting for a fix for this or that. I’m saying this because when I started doing 3D that was on Imagine, and that was before the 90s :smiley: and back then there was no interaction let alone features, and still we did allot of work. If your going to make a certin X feature get in your way of producing work, then you wont be getting anywhere far soon. About a month ago we landed this new job, 3 adds for a PnG product, and it was to be done mostly in Fusion5 for it’s 3D, my boss didn’t do any much work in Fusion5 3D since it was out and till that time he’s been using v4, since it offered everything he wanted, but for these 3 projects it was Fusion5 job no doubt, Now that wasn’t an easy ride, and the project was very demanding and extremly complex, plus the deadline was insane! and he was having a real hard time executing the project because of the weired navigation system, strange function curve relation to the view plus the difficulity of learning new tools while working on a high profile project! but my boss is like me, a retro bastard I must say :smiley: he didn’t let that stand in his way, and he went even further than what he was expected to do, he still complains about the navigation system, but he still is working and when he does, the complaining stops, because the job needs to be done, after a while he’ll stop complaining, it’s like learning a new language, you start with the filthy words first then you start enjoying literature.

The reason I’m telling you all this is because I want you all to understand that if your going to wait for something to happen for you to actually do something then you’ll never do it, and if your doing it but you keep waving that annoying feature in your face all the time, then you’ll hate what your doing. Try to alienate your self from all those negative thoughts and instead concentrate on how prodice a great work. Messiah is not a bad program, and it has soooooo much power hidden, and it does compete in many areas with the big boys, for a fraction of the price I may add. Some people keep hunting features and new releases and they don’t realise that most major studios recently started upgrading their softwares to new releases. it was in the middle of StarWars 2 that ILM switched to XSI, untill that time, all the blockbuster movies ILM did was done in SI3D, and that’s just crazy, SI3D is crazy and OLD! it’s not even User Friendly, I know I’ve worked with it for years! Messiah is like heaven compared to SI3D. and while people where hunting, crying and cheering for Maya 7, Weta did LOTR 2 using Maya 5! Programs old or new, bulky, awkward or streamlined, they are all just tools, and for the best years of VFX Films or Animated ones, there weren’t Fluids, nor SSS, nor SubD, nor nGons there was nothing, except pure passion, raw talent and the thrill to produce.

Messiah or any other tool are meant to help us produce work, and if any tool is standing between you and producing work, then ditch it and look for another tool that allows you to work without headech. 3D programns are getting cheap and some are as cheap as messiah, take your pick. But staying and torturing your self like this is not fair for you nor the developers of the tool. I’m not trying to cause a mass migration from messiah, on the contrary, I want more people to use it, but I and many others like me don’t want to see it bashed like this every day and in every occasion! Simply because it’s not that bad, it’s not even close to bad! it’s a great tool with many many great films in it’s credit, but so far with all these comments it’s showing to everyone who even come wondering here that it’s incompetent product, useless. And that’s not fair. If you guys are sticking here and not letting go of the product, dont’ waste your time hunting for shortcomings and bugs and rob the developers face with it, work around it. XSI is not perfect, it’s far far far away from it. I curse Avid many times a day, but I look for workarounds, and at the end I feel proud and more confident about my self, because I didn’t give up, I found a way around the shortcomings, and that’s what allows me to tackle more difficult jobs without bieng afraid. The client doesn’t care about what software you’ve used, the auidience don’t care what software you’ve used, what matters is the results on screen, if you can inspire them and have their jaw dropped then a job well done, if not try again harder.

Ok this thread is now officially OT :slight_smile:

Cheers
I3D

#61

Amen! Thank you Ironic3D.

Simply because it’s not that bad, it’s not even close to bad! it’s a great tool with many many great films in it’s credit, but so far with all these comments it’s showing to everyone who even come wondering here that it’s incompetent product, useless. And that’s not fair.

No, it isn’t fair. And not on every topic that comes up!

If you guys are sticking here and not letting go of the product, dont’ waste your time hunting for shortcomings and bugs and rob the developers face with it, work around it. XSI is not perfect, it’s far far far away from it. I curse Avid many times a day, but I look for workarounds, and at the end I feel proud and more confident about my self, because I didn’t give up, I found a way around the shortcomings, and that’s what allows me to tackle more difficult jobs without bieng afraid. The client doesn’t care about what software you’ve used, the auidience don’t care what software you’ve used, what matters is the results on screen, if you can inspire them and have their jaw dropped then a job well done, if not try again harder.

Ok this thread is now officially OT :slight_smile:

Cheers
I3D

Thank you very mcuh Ironic3D for a thoughtful post on the subject.