Looking for Samir from Navié Effex


Actually. I’m not really saying “if you don’t need it buy something else”.
What I’m saying is that if you think C4D is overpriced. And then you buy it anyway. Then you (the user) are now setting the prices higher. Not MAXON.

MAXON: “We’re raising our prices” ----------------------------> At this point MAXON is 100% responsible for the pricing
USER: “That sucks! But here’s my money anyway” -------> At this point the user is now 100% responsible for the pricing.



of course.

But if you need the tools to do your job you pony up or you buy something else. Or change your career.
The other options out there arent any better or cheaper in my opinion. Or just use Blender.


That’s a rather gross over-simplification. If Maxon raises their prices, but the feature set includes some mission critical updates and features I need for my work, then I am just supposed to induce self-inflicted hardship on the back of ‘taking a stand’? That’s ludicrous in it’s impracticality, and could only work in a world of black and white absolutes, rather than the one with 1000’s of shades of gray in which we actually live.


No. There’s no shades of grey when it comes to the truth.
There’s many reasons why you might choose to over pay for something. In your example you’re choosing to over pay in return for solving an immediate problem.
That might sound like a logical thing to do. But that doesn’t change the fact that by doing this. You’re going to be hurting yourself and everyone else in the long term. And playing right into the hands of the seller.
Businesses want you to have thoughts like this. They want you to get yourselves into that kind of scenario. That’s gives them the power to set their own prices. It’s money in the bank.
It makes no difference the circumstances behind it. There’s no out clause. There’s no excuse that absolves you of your responsibilities. There is no free pass.
If you over pay for something regardless of the reason. Then the pricing is 100% your responsibility. Not the seller’s.

Like I said before.
It’s hip to point the finger at someone else when this happens. And not take any personal responsibility for it. Everyone is a victim these days.
But the truth is that if something bad exists. It’s only exists because a bunch of people are paying for it to exist.



You have taken this thread in a totally off-topic direction. You have been insulting and dogmatic. You are acting like an idealogical zealot on a manic rant.

According to you anyone who buys a product beyond a margin of profit that you deem as excessive… somehow victimizes the world. You are appointing yourself as some objective arbiter of what constitutes reasonable versus excessive pricing and are ready to sentence anyone who trespasses across your imagined boundary.

We don’t need a course in your economic fundamentalism.

Just stop.


Certainly… however, what you have espoused is not the truth. Instead it is a scenario based in a world of absolutes, in which, apparently people don’t have jobs to complete and bills to pay (including the people who make and support the software). It’s a nice fantasy for things to work in the manner you outlined, but that’s not how it it works - and THAT is the truth, son.

Now, we ALL know how you feel, you even said yourself you’ve been ringing this bell for more than a decade. I’m speaking on behalf of all of us here when I Kindly ask you to put it to bed. Your negativity is serving no useful purpose and is derailing this thread. Your complaints have not now, nor will they ever likely affect any actual positive change, so go start a blog or something if you need to vent your frustrations arising from your misunderstanding of economics and reality, and if you really are THAT unhappy with the software, find another tool to use and go troll that forum.


If you don’t want to hear someone’s opinion. Then don’t reply to them with your own opinion on the subject. And not expect to get a reply back.
If this thread is going OT. That’s only because you guys are not letting go of it . And continue to post about it. There’s that darned personal responsibility thing again. :wink:
And most of all. If you’re going to play the morality card. You certainly should not be calling people names.

The only person in this thread that has been rude, aggressive , and resorted to name calling is you IceCaveMan.
If you don’t agree with someone that’s fine. But the way you’ve over reacted and resorted to name calling is completely unacceptable.
If you’re this easily triggered. Then you should not be posting in a public forum where people with different opinions from you make you lose it and resort to name calling.
You’re way out of line here. And you need to be an adult and apologize for it.
Then drop it and move on.

Can you tell me where I can find a good deal on a soap box? :wink:
It’s very interesting how you label having power and personal responsibility in the market place as being “negative”.
Now I know where I went wrong. The first rule of Not My Fault Club is: “Don’t talk about Not My Fault Club”
Remember. You’re always the victim. And nothing is EVER your responsibility or your fault.
If I wanted to join you guys at some point. Where are the meetings held?
Do you have a secret handshake?



Good grief.


:slight_smile: Anyway…

Here is the first thing I ever did with the effex demo–maybe 5 years ago? Was pretty quick and easy to set up. Really liked it at the time but was too expensive for my actual needs, wasnt supported by any farms (that I know of), and then XP came along with its nice fluid solvers and then some for a more reasonable price.

Effexx test


That’s a great test, Joel. Nice result! So are you doing fluid sims with xParticles now?


Thanks mustardseed

I have done xp fluid sims from time to time. For the stuff I needed to do it worked great and has gotten even better in the last release.
Great for on the fly stuff. The toughest shot I ever used it for was for an 8K planetarium shot where we needed to make the audience feel like they were being immersed by a wall of water showering over them. It was tough to get working since there were so many sims/skinniers involved in the shot but it worked well enough. Still not as good as reelflow–but I think much better than the reelflow c4d plugin.
I havent needed to touch fluids much for a while though.


Sounds like you have quite extensive experience with fluids in XP. Hope you don’t mind if I pick your brains a bit:

  • Do you do everything on the same computer, of do you have a station dedicated to calculating the sims/skinning/caching etc?
  • Do you bake everything and send to renderfarms?

Thanks in advance!


Wouldnt say I have extensive experience–but to answer your questions–we just calculate our sims on our workstation. Its usually not too bad–maybe a few hours at most. If its a super long sim we might run it overnight. If you are going to be doing it regularly, buying a dedicated system sounds like a good idea.

You definitely need to bake before sending to a farm. We’ve had varying degrees of success with the xp cache object. It will usually work when set to “internal” but if your file size gets into the several gbs as a result, you would want to bake to an external file sequence. This is the area where we sometimes have trouble getting a farm to see the sequences. I believe there was a bug with xp external cache objects and TRS but haven’t tested in awhile to see if its been fixed.

There is one bug that comes up occasionally when xp-caching out particles that have geo assigned to them via the xp generator object. If the geo is set to render instances, sometimes the farm will give back erratic results (particles missing in some frames or in shifted positions). Switching to straight objects will fix this usually but will bog down the file. We will usually give it a shot and see if RIs work on the farm–sometimes they do.

If there is any skinning involved, we’ve found it much more effective and controllable to bake to an alembic file rather than xp-cache. Big files but smooth playback and there are retiming controls if you need to tweak.
We are finishing up a shot now with over 50 baked alembics (from xp skkinners) and it worked great.


Baking to Alembic can also improve render time, especially with detailed meshes - as it allows you to calculate the mesh once at the beginning of the project and not every time you render the sequence (especially helpful during look-dev). It also will make things easier if you send it to a farm, as reduces the amount of plugins needed to render the job.


Lovely how you decry another for using insults, then fill your response to me with passive-aggressive insults of your own, all while demonstrating your complete inability to grasp a rather simple point. I don’t think there exists a facepalm big enough.

Anyway, that’s all I’ve got to say on this sidebar… we now resume our normally scheduled discussion, already in progress.

As to the Insydium purchase of Naive, it can be nothing but good. Samir poured years of work into Naive, and it’s a shame that life interfered… For awhile it seemed all that promising tech was going to decay in the github graveyard. As has been said before, I can think of no company better suited to take Navie to the next level.


That was another nice one. Really emotional and manic just like your other ones.
But I was really hoping for was a link to a good soap box. Like the one you’re using.



Thank you Joel and Luke, for the great info and tips!

I’ve played with Effex demo in the past, and while it produced some really awesome results ( I found the mesher quality very impressive) it always seemed very technical and complex to me. I’m about to get a demo of Xp to see if it’s any easier to work with fluids.


I wouldnt say fluids (or any sims) are “easy” as no matter which way you go you need to learn the tools and tweak a lot to get the right look. The thing about XP is that you have more than one way to approach fluids. You can use the voxel/domain approach or you can use straight particle systems with fluid effectors. There are also several skinning options as well as the newer openvdb to give you control on what the liquid mesh looks like which is nice.

Each option has its pros and cons and offers flexibility, but also means there are more variables to get your head around. I’d say if you need to do a lot of realistic liquid/fluid sim work, it might be best to just go straight to realflow. But, delepnding on the project, XP can get you pretty and you will find the drag and drop nature to be familiar like mograph, so in that way–its user friendly and fits pretty seamlessly into the c4d toolset in my opinion.


I found XP to be a lot easier to work with in terms of modifiers - as they’re very goal oriented. “I want to create a vortex, so I sue the vortex modifier.” “I want to animate it along a spline, so I use the follow Spline modifier” etc - whereas the Effex modifiers were more granular - “Building block” in nature. Each has its pros and cons.

Xp was/is lot more stable - but the liquid meshing and simulation aspects have always felt a bit too metabally, so I’m looking forward to seeing the Effex mesher built in.

Also, Effex had some really high level type stuff, with custom fields and volumetric modifiers that had great promise, but were difficult to use. I’m hoping Insydium can figure out a way to get them all working together harmoniously.


These two packages really do compliment each other well. My biggest disappointment in the XP4 update was the fluids. They’re serviceable for random splashy mograph stuff, but realism is still lacking compared to Effex or RF|C4D. Hopefully the Effex tech can be incorporated in a user friendly way. Some of it, such as the mesher you mentioned, would seem to be relatively easy to port over since Effex can already deal with XParticles and was compatible with OpenVDB in its last version… I would also imagine things like the particle sampler shader would be a pretty straightforward addition. One thing I really miss is the Effex “everything can control everything else” constraint system, but that would seem to be a much more complicated task. Hopefully Insydium’s new release schedule means we’ll see some of the Effex features sooner rather than later.