Just to clarify my own post…
I’m not worried about anything that happened with this challenge at all. I think it went perfect and was very fair. Just the next challenge I think would improve by some new catigories…
Though I do agree that what airflow is saying is kind of along my lines of thinking for wanting new catigories.
And to clarify, I had no probelem execpt that there is not 2 categories, Modeling and Sculpting. It would kinda seperate the two disciplines and make a much more fair process for everyone. Also showing your process right through out the challenge would be the way to go, it make it more intersting than someone posting 3 images and thats their part done.
I agree with Airflow on this one. While Zbrush / Mudbox stuff looks awesome and still requires a lot of skill to master. It just isn’t the same when a simplistic base mesh is created then put into a sculpting program, as opposed to someone who spends hours and hours manipulating poly’s, vert’s etc etc in a program like MAX or Maya to get a finished mesh happening. Maybe sculpting and modelling need to be put into seperate categories in future challenges. While I do have Mudbox I haven’t really done anything with it as I haven’t got the time to learn it so until then I will still be poly-modelling. I can see this turning into a debate!
I like these cathegories for the next one.
And I agree with Boone. People will have to show a model progression , from poly to final model (Using either stills or an animated sequence).
So in order to keep it fair I will add this rule
[ul]
[li]All artists are REQUIRED to post AT LEAST 10 WIP images. [/li][/ul]Of course and animated sequence (Done with Camtasia or a gif animation program) would be enought to cover this rule.
I’ve heard this debate before on the 2D side. Reference images vs. no reference, Steven Ståhlberg had to defend his use of reference images to create some of his work because someone said it was “like” cheating. In that regard I say use what is needed to finish the piece. You see that from Alex Ross as well.
To the current discussion, poly modeling is hard: its time consuming, its tedious and its hard to see your ultimate goal when your stuck down in the vertex details (my own experiece and opinion). I get frustrated working at the massive poly detail level because it doesn’t feel like art it feels more like construction and thats not how I operate in the real world. Sculpt modeling is just the next extension in bringing the artist to the art. None of us would want to go back to the days of having to plot coordinates to get vertecis to appear on screen, I know I sure wouldn’t. I was a master at DOS but I’m not going to eschew a GUI interface that does the same job only much easier because its not “pure.”
Having said all of that I like the categories John-S proposed provided it doesn’t create some kind of weird segregation between modelers and sculpters. We really should all be both. A model should not be looked down on because it was finished in 2 days just like a model should not be elevated because the artist spent a month on it.
Sorry, that was way too philosophical just to say I agree. 
yes well … ermm … What Wyatt said about what John said…
I agree that there is a need to differentiate between the ZB/Mud sculpters and the poly modellers to a certain extent …
Nice clearly defined categories.
I think “in-organic” has caused a bit of confusion, i doubt it will affect the result however
I agree 110%!!..without any prior knowledge of ( what will probably soon be called ) old school modeling…be it poly2poly or boxModeling…<<without that, using MB or ZB wouldn’t even matter…granted using such programs may give “quicker” results…howEver, it won’t make the models “better”…in fact…without proper planning before sculpting, you can end up with a bigMess…so in closing, to me, it doesn’t really matter much which program is being used, and you’ve probably heard this…but it’s the artist using it that matters.
ltr-
Yep. The program you use won’t suddenly make you better. The tools may make you faster, but not better. That’s the only difference here. And that’s the only reason to have a seperate category for it. Same as having someone sculpting using a hammer and chisels and another using a power chisel with a Dremel.
The thing is, is that this only pertains to organic modeling. ZBrush and Mudbox both suck at inorganic modeling. It’s possible to do it, but very difficult. That’s why most of the time everyone brings in their models from another program. I wouldn’t create an AT-AT in ZBrush. Much faster to do that in a poly modeler. So there are trade-offs.
But since this next challenge is more organic in nature, it makes sense to have a seperate category for polymodelers since ZB and MB users will have a speed advantage.
exactly!!..that’s the only real issue here…so what’s the point in making two categories anyHow?..what are you guys worried about?..that the guy/gal next to you is producing faster upDates…or better ones??..I’m sure for many of you it’s the latter, so then it’s not the program.
and don’t forget people, the challenges last a good month and a half, so really there’s good enough time…not saying we all have time for the challenges, but…another point to make is these challenges are also about helping you to get better and having fun…maybe even make a few renderBuddies along the way…
ltr-
I agree whith what you say, but still find it unfair to have say someone put all that and time, only to loose out to somone who does everything easier and faster. There is an issue. There should be seperate catergories, so polymodelers are up against poly modelers. Sculpters up against sculptors, and anyone between goes for the overall catergory.
Speed is a factor, alot of people didnt have the time to finish their entrys. Even with nearly two months… Which is why I had to vote for the star destroyer… the sheer amouth of time and concentration… I thought my Gauntlets were bad, and its wasnt easy making them at all, I barely had time to get my model facing in the right direction due to clients bugging me at every turn.
Atleast I entered. John for instance, had he used mudbox or zbrush woulod have had probably finished his entry, but I still feel he put in a remarkable effort to model every wrinkle to the level that others would have merely painted… You cant just turn round to him and say, “Too bad, nice effort but your up against a model with 20 times the amount of wrinkles… You were not fast enough.”
Effort must count for somthing.
If eveyone used only mudbox or zbrush3, then it would be a level palying feild, right now the polymodellers are handicapped by being put in with the much quicker and less restrictive sculpting.
Yes, I also agree firmly to “what Wyatt said about what John said”.
Roberto 
Thanks for listening.
I also agree with what airflow has said.
If your against 2 seperate catigories they why not be against all but 1 catigory? People need to be recognized for what they are good in and push their skills to the next level if they want to win a challenge in what I believe is the biggest CG website there is…
I understand what you’re saying airflow…but speed only comes with proper knowledge of your subject ( whatEver that might be…cars, human…dynamics )…for example, some people can model heads veryQuickly…and that’s b/c they know what there doing…they know where the features are and what they’re suppose to look like…so their able to produce faster models and in mostCases, with better results…having a faster car doesn’t make you a better driver…you’re more likely to crash actually…if it’s a new subject…like say star wars, then the benefit comes when you’re able to observe what you’re trying to model…and I don’t mean to just see…but an eye for detail…b/c way back when we first did the David model…EVERYONE…and I mean everyone had the same access to references, the same amount of time…but yet many different versions of David was made…again, it boils down to the artist…which I’ll boarden and say it’s the knowledge/skill/talent/patiences that artist has that makes all the difference…<< that’s the real, Real issue…
Edit:: just to address the part about “the sheer amouth of time and concentration”…believe me, I know what you mean b/c I’m a polyModeler myself…but what I’ve found is as I learn more and more about mySubject ( the human figure ) …it doesn’t take as much concentration anymore…that’s why it’s good to sitDown and study what you’re going to model b/4 you even think of starting…take a day or two…it makes it easier…
ltr-
Boy ain’t that the truth. Give me point-to-point modelling anyday when dealing with in-organics.
I think we are addressing a larger industry issue here. Most organic modelling seems to be heading in the direction of sculpting. Therefore those who haven’t adapted to it may be feeling left behind by the technology swing. I’ve felt this many times before due to my chronic lack of funds for software upgrades. This is why I jumped on Z-Brush as quick as I could because it was a perfect match for me and I saved up specifically for it. Comments about Mudbox have now got me thinking, “Crap did I make the right choice, should I invest in Mudbox now?” The cycle never ends…
Some of the comments about this sound as though a certain method should be held to a different measurement stick simply because it is harder to do. I don’t think thats right. Lets face it, those that modelled the different ships and vehicles showed what poly modelling can do and they didn’t need a special category. A good job is a good job whether it’s fast/slow/easy/hard.
Now, this is not the industry, its a challenge forum. And Roberto can make the rules however he wants. If we have a separate category thats fine, but like I said lets not create segregation between “poly guys” and “sculpters.” As far as I’m concerned I’m both, I’m whatever I need to be to get the job done. Honestly I thought the texture vs. no texture argument made more sense to this forum.
Speaking of which Roberto, will this still be sans textures as mentioned waaayyyy back before the Star Wars challenge?
I think in a competivive enviroment it is important to have a correct yardstick. If this was sculpting, you could liken it to one group using sculpey and one using hard rock and a chisel and mallet. One group has a distinct disadvantage in tems of difficulty and speed, what ever way you put it its a disadvantage and so it should be adressed. It doesnt matter if were talking organics or hard surface… Pick any good mudbox sculpt entered in this challenge and ask the artist how hard it would be modeling in pure polys… Im sure they would tell you which they would prefer. And so I think it is fair to allow people to use what ever but also seperate the modeling discipline. I feel no fear entering a sculpture or model, in either categorie, infact I think it will open up the competition, and also force people to examine their work process, find a more efficent way of working, and be able to measure that against a process thats similar to their own, a propper yardstick if you will, as opposed to how cool you think somthing is, it will now be how cool this sculpture is againt this other cool sculpture, as opposed to this cool model. Like to like…
hey Airflow sup, and again I feel you man…but the only way a correct yardStick would work here is if you “had” to join the challenge…which we don’t…and while we’re at it…it’s a challenge forum afterAll, wouldn’t you like to see how you measure up to the sculpters?..to see how much you can truly push yourSelf with yourCurrent toolSet?..a correct yardStick isn’t really needed since you’re coming in knowing what your toolSet is, and knowing what other folks may have as well…it’s like a “model at yourOwn risk” kind of deal…I mean I’m not too concerned eitherWay, I guess I’m trying to figureOut what’s really going on here…
ltr-
We will do future cahllenges like the Star Wars one.
Textures are optional, and should NOT be a judging criteria for the best entry. But If a artist want to do a full entry I cannot stop him.
-R
Re: GaiXyn.
That is true. To pit myself against superior forces( Yav, Simjoy, Airflow etc ) was the only way I was going to learn to become a better modeller. And I was shit at modelling.
I have to say - I prefer it that way, cos If I had won I’d know something would be very wrong!
Well to be honest, Id prefer to take on somone at an even keel. If I enter in sculpting its my prowess against theirs… If its Modeling, same thing. Though they are connected they are two diciplines, its almost like asking a matte painter to take on a pinhole photographer. The both have realistic end results, but what it took to get there is more important in my books than the result…