How I think this all works.

#9

Note of protest to Wegg:

Is that the brave new world Wegg-Style?
Closing well behaved, interesting threads and instead telling the world how it REALLY works?
Shuting down people by vague promises about jobs for well-behavers?

And what’s wrong with render layers? They are used in production. Wouldn’t it be fantastic to have even more - for instance motion vectors for post motion blur?

All of this while you aren’t even able to maintain a messiah gallery that doesn’t look like crap for years now because nothing is good enough for you?

What is this, a 1-man crusade?
William the First?

Disgusting, really.

You are welcome to delete this post.
I really don’t give a **** anymore.
[shudder]

#10

Thomas,

I believe the point Wegg was making was that we had explored a lot of suggestions and what-ifs…and had gone about as far as we could, or needed to with it. And second, if more of us were creating really cool stuff, from actual work to tutorial videos, the uninitiated would see how awesome and powerful messiah already is. That would translate into more sales and then other things we all want to see happen. We have a vested interest in seeing PMG succeed because it means we get an even better software. And, although I don’t know them personally, but have stayed in touch with Fred over the years here and there, I love what they have created, think they care, and want them to succeed personally as well.

There are always things to fix, and things people want. What is different here than in any product, let alone software?

For me, once I finish the current traditional animation job I’m working on, I will be starting back into messiah on my 3d project. Hope I’ll be one of those who contrbutes something to the cause.

Best,
Rick

#11

Guys in #Messiah3D suggested that I give warnings on threads before I close them. Allow people a few days to get their final say in. I can understand that and I think that is a good compromise between me trying to keep things positive but also understanding that we are all adults and don’t need a baby sitter.

#12

Wegg,

I’d like you to reconsider the “From now on when I see things that relate to feature fixes/bugs/requests I’m going to plop that post into that sticky.”

I think that would be a move in the wrong direction. I don’t like that idea at all. It seems like the first unnoticed step of unnecessary control or censorship.

I agree with Thomas’s comment on “Shuting down people by vague promises about jobs for well-behavers?” I thought that was rather crass to be honest.

Your seemingly positive post is taking this forum in a direction I don’t think I’m going to like one bit. Shame. I can see exactly why Thomas has written shudder at the end of his post. I feel that way too.

#13

It seems like that thread inspired more comments on the matter than the official
bug tracking thread did. I don’t know why…maybe it’s because Taron started it and posted on it. It might be more work for pmg to read it this way, but maybe it’s best
to let people post it when and where it comes up, and hope they also put it on the
bug tracking thread. At least it was fairly consolidated into one thread.

#14

Well that was not my intention.

I think I would like to focus feature requests and bug complaints in one concentrated thread that has the bug tracker as the topic of discussion. And it is right there on the TOP as a sticky. . . not hidden away or removed or edited like your <shivers> imply. Notice I didn’t even mess with Thomas’ post? I just don’t do that. Nor do I want too.

I think this will allow us to work towards something, shows that our community wants Messiah to improve and that we are free to have open discussions about it. The hijacking of Taron’s tool announcement was frustrating for me. I know how long he has worked on that and how important it is to him. Its not even what was being said. . . it was the volume of $0.02 being thrown in over and over and over and over on a thread that was started about something else. . . I waited till there was an appropriate lull. . . closed it up and mentioned how I’d like to handle these kinds of posts in the future. I think thats more than reasonable. I just want to find a better place for that kind of thing.

I do have a big project coming up. . . but that aside. . . who is going to hire complainers and shit stirring doom sayers? I’m just trying to urge people to THINK about what they are posting before they dive in. Will what I say help? If your next thought is “Probably not but it will be fun to get into the mix.”. . . then thats just not . . . cool. Not community building etc.

Ok? Are we good?

#15

I submitted a “bug”. . . and posted info about it in the bug tracker thread. Trying to lead by example here. :rolleyes:

#16

Despite some of the negativity I think the recent flurry of activity is a good sign. At least people are posting instead of letting this place turn into a graveyard. Just the act of posting makes the community feel more alive and helps prevent the impression that messiah is a dead app. I know I’m kinda guilty of that too since I hardly post here despite using messiah for 7 years (I can’t believe it’s been that long!).

I’m working on a short that I’ll be animating in messiah so if all goes well then I’ll be doing my part to keep the messiah forums post count up and expand the gallery. I want to spend a lot of time on this and make it look good, so I’m sure I’ll at least be on irc a lot and hopefully posting some progress reports here on CGTalk. I still haven’t decided if I’m going to render in messiah or Lightwave though. I know Lightwave inside and out but I’ve done a little toying with messiah’s renderer and there’s a lot I like about it. My biggest problem right now is lack of a good hair solution. Alpha mapped polys might work. I’ll have to do some tests…

#17

DaveW! How dare you imply that this place was turning into graveyard!
/end attempt at flame. I’m just no good at it…

Guys, whether snubbing the thread was wise or not, calling it censorship is…
err, more than exaggerated. And anyone banking their careers on one job “promise”, well…
you’ll need more than one messiah.

We should all avoid assumptions as to the motivations of others in the forum. If something doesn’t seem kosher, raise the issue with that person in a civil way.

Thomas has done loads for the community alone via the freely available documentation to his shaders, which go a long way to understanding messiah:render.
Wegg has DONE the community. Don’t underestimate the work involved in this kind of engagement. Show respect.
No one wants a love fest, no one wants mud wrestling (face it: none of us are cute enough to warrant decent ratings.) we want a reasonable exchange of experience and opinion.

#18

It’s rather depressing that this all turned out to be seen as so negative. The original thread that was closed by Wegg was, IMO, a bunch of people trying in their own way to help. When I look back at how I posted on that thread, especially at the start, I couldn’t have been much more positive! People jumped in to say what they thought was important, where they saw the sw needed attention etc. Yes feelings are expressed with strength but there was no out and out bashing with no end purpose AND YET, it feels to me that the whole thread has, by Wegg’s later “How I think it all works” thread, been somehow made to resemble just a bitch and moan session. I utterly object to that. That’s the part I find offensive.

Let’s not forget that it was Taron who said “If ALL of you great investors would spend $100 on us at once, we’d be back on track and could focus 100% on the things we’re after and those are split in two kinds of ways:…”. That does NOT resemble a normal business relationship to me, hence the sugestions ($100 upgrade being one).

Will I get over this? Yes. Has it left a bitter taste in my mouth? Yes.

Dissappointed. :sad:

#19

I don’t see it as negative at all - and would find it unfortunate if others did so.
I agree with your assessment. Lots of good, engaged interest in the future of the software.
Just don’t see the closing of the thread as being censorship or so…
don’t think it was astute, either - though I agree that it seemed everything had been said.

DMack - don’t be bitter. Look at the new animations and projects being shared here…

#20

Hi David,

The closing of the thread didn’t bother me, I agree, it had come to a natural end in any case (though I would add that it would have been nice to have heard something from PMG?!).

What has bothered me is comments like:

. . think about it for a minute. What is the one thing that you could do that would get all these bugs fixed or features added? Would it be spewing forth gobs of ideas and business plans. . . ? Maybe vent over and over about a single feature that you are fixated on that you feel is stopping you from using the software? (Last year it was Render Layers. Anyone remember that?) Maybe poke fun at pmG’s lackings in certain areas maybe? Do you think those things would help?

and

I’m honestly not going to approach the people who are complainers for that help. I want to find people who can get in there and get it done and know how to communicate and participate in a community.

Those comments rubbish all the suggestions and input in that thread and, IMO, imply that it was simply a bitch and moan session with no positive part to play. That is the objectionable part. Everyone has a different approach to trying to get sw developed. I think people should be allowed to do so without being made out to be bitchers and moaners. The ‘Everything’s Great All the Time’ camp should respect that. I have ALWAYS advertised PMG on other forums (see Luxology’s and CGtalk newtek section). I do my bit.

Lastly, ironically, I did send PMG two animations done in messiah:animate some time ago - for possible inclusion to the gallery. I never got a reply. Maybe they weren’t good enough but it makes it all the more irritating when I read a post like Wegg’s! [i]

[/i]

#21

After that we had a conversation on IRC about starting a new thread that has a Poll about what we would like to have that $100 buy and that thread got started. Of course that one was on topic and made complete sense. I had no reason to close that one. . .

#22

And I posted the suggestions on the community bug tracker thread on this forum
so they’ll be there for a while.

#23

Hi DMack… I know how you feel. I’ve offered models for release to the messiah community - nothing’s come of my offer yet. Maybe when I finally get around to modeling the skydiver…
It’s nothing personal - peopl,e are busy, have agendas of their own and apparently my meshes haven’t hit that sweet spot that motivates people to speak up for them…

I plod forward.

As for Wegg making that sort of statement - its a tough call. As a private user and project manager its his right. I can also understand his frustration that people aren’t playing with the power that messiah - as it is now - offers. As a forum mod - yeah, not quite astute of him. But hell, cut him some slack. I certainly don’t think there was a personal slant in there, just a guy wanting to see his project pitch get off the ground with a software package that all of us love to use - why else would we be getting so vocal about it?

#24

David,

I believe Wegg took a perfectly positive set of posts and cast them in an artificially negative light and made a deal of it. I object to that. To me that is destructive and does not benefit the PMG cause at all. After all, it’s turned from a post on how users might help PMG to this… And I do NOT consider myself at fault in this regard.

Wegg,

Did you even read my last post!? Closing the thread has nothing to do with my complaint, indeed I even start “The closing of the thread didn’t bother me…”. Do you seriously NOT understand my reason for complaint havnig read my posts?

#25

DMack, that’s my point. It’s not your fault. It’s not Wegg’s fault. Its simply not going anywhere as long as anyone is assuming negative intentions on the part of someone else.
Without getting back to a point where there’s at least a faith in intention (though sh*t may have happened) it just won’t go anywhere.

#26

Guys, keep it up and I’ll turn this forum right around and go home!

#27

I quoted what it was I was referring too. I believe in the time it took me to type that and hit send. . . you had said something new. I read that. . . and. . . now do not have the slightest idea what has you so upset. dobermunk seems to have a clue. I don’t. So I decided to shut up.

But your still upset so. . .

I have a lot of ideas and opinions and do my best to try and keep them in check when I’m “Forum Leading”. Like I said at the beginning. . . pmG do not need lots and lots of new ideas and big long threads where $0.02 are thrown in about how they should run their affairs or what should be their primary focus. I saw that thread as a problem so dealt with it the best way I knew how, tried to explain why and also tried to let you understand “how it all works” from my perspective. I’m sorry that you don’t agree.

pmG have major communication problems. Sending your work to them won’t get you very far. Posting it here will. I can give any good work the attention it deserves and that will in turn help pmG.

DMack from now on please pm me or e-mail me with complaints about how I’m managing things. I think you will find that I’m pretty reasonable.

#28

Dmack,

Personally I didn’t take Wegg’s comments as rubbishing the thread or ripping on anyone. I would guess that part of his comments (and I’m sure he will correct me if I am wrong) stems from the fact that he is a big supporter of the software and he would rather not see happen to this forum what happened to the Animation Master forum. That one went screaming down the toilet for many reasons but I recall one of them being that it did on occasion turn in to a bitch fest.

I don’t think we are anywhere near that here as most everyones comments (yours especially) have been very positive. All the new threads, (Fred’s Xmas one as an example, the great rig threads) seem to really be moving this in a good direction, let’s not get all turned around here again. Onward and upward… and maybe a little to the left. :slight_smile: