How do you use messiah for rendering?

#21

Well, while it is said that hindsight is cheap, I agree wholeheartedly with the bit about what a fantastic animation tool messiah could be today without the development time the renderer sucked and still sucks away from it.
From what I know today, I would guess the renderer will take another 2 years until it can compete with other tools in solidness and completeness of the features.
Or maybe: If it isn’t there after 6 years, it probably never will.

On the other hand: Animation for Animators, not TDs, is still a heavily sought after thing. And improvements in that area could be made in a finite timeframe: If an autorig is too much to develop, drop it and just deliver several good rigs from simple to complex and parts of rigs with the app. (not only fish :wink: ) Show the users how to adapt those rigs to their characters. Improve the setup saving and loading and you will have come a long way.
Build in better import and export, maybe including something like Collada or another open format…

Don’t develop for developers and TDs, but for ANIMATORS. That means that you deliver 30 or more useful, intuitive actions for armatures, not 5 and a SDK. Animators don’t code, Period.

Think simple.

I did the TLH Shader tools in 2 days as my first exercise in messiah coding and they improved my render-experience massively. Such small things sometimes help people more than some on-the-edge-of-technology tools. While this is a render example, it holds for animation at least as much.
I hardly dare to mention “search and replace in expressions”. That demand is over 6 years old and should be a piece of cake to implement.

Or other little helpers: In XSI I draw a bone chain and bang, it has IK, FK a slider for blending them and tons of settings for handles, IK style (2D and 3D) etc. Maybe even to much, but some such convenience functions would take messiah a long way toward 2006.

Bones should finally get not only the option to realtime modify the jonts but also rotate the bones individually. Not only splitting bones, but joining them too…

“Maintenance” I would call it.
Keep what was good in a decent shape.
Refine existing tools after their initial introduction in a regular manner.
If users have problems with a tool, LISTEN to them, even if you yourself think the feature is the coolest since sliced bread and the user is just being stupid.
From Compose to DirectX, from Armatures to the timeline handles - there aren’t many areas where there aren’t obvious things to improve.

But the problem may be that the basic stuff that is so much needed every day is extremely boring. It is much more interesting to develop some completely new stuff.
I even understand that…

OK, I’m wandering way off topic here. Sorry for ranting once more.
I still seem to have some hope for messiah deep inside :shrug: :rolleyes: :blush: :slight_smile:

Best regards,

#22

I know a lot of places DON’T consider messiah (for character animation) because they don’t know how well it hooks up to a Maya/3DSMAX pipeline.
This needs to be messiah next proving ground VS a renderer. IMO of course.

Since Autodesk bought Maya, then maybe PMG should make a guaranteed hookup to
3DSMAX and Maya First.

Solve the questions for big houses.

Can I import/export motion curves easily?
How do I animate a character with multiple mesh?
Is it a one button transfer of transmitting animation data?
If I change/update my model in 3DSMAX/Maya, what does that do to my connection/point data file?
Should messiah have its own point cloud format (.mdd like)
It should be a open format too!

In 3DSMAX/Maya, does messiah make it easier to (character) animate in messiah than in main package.
If no autorig, large library of ready made rigs or rigs that can be expanded.

TEXTURE in pipeline

Can the rigger in messiah and the texture artist in Max/Maya workon the same model? If not, what is the workflow: Is it easy to swap out?

A lot of of this above is a no-brainer with Lightwave but toughie with 3DSMAX/Maya.

PARTICLES in pipeline

Can I animate particles in messiah and bring them into 3DSMAX/Maya?
If not, can my particle system in 3DSMAX/Maya interact with messiah-driven character just as seamlessly?

MORE TOOLS in Messiah

Basically copy the toolset from Chicken Little, the widgets and customizable interface
Some preset hookups for animators would be nice but allow the TDs to have a ball (more advanced Armature).

Just basically squash the moans and groans from TDs and producers when they consider using a third party tool and considering to intergrated in a larger pipeline/3DSMAX/Maya.

This is all my speculation, but i think the indstry has upped its game and well
the Renderer will continue sucking up the development time.

No new videos from PMG on the old renderer toolset is a drag.

#23

OK, 68 Voters so far until 03/06/2006.
17 are using messiah for rendering as far as possible (25%).
51 don’t (75%).

Any more Votes?

Thank you all very much!

#24

See I see it as a little different Thomas.

29 - Would use it if training was available. (likely)

17 - Use it full time.

22 - May use it after the next update.

Even if you took out any chance of the 22 using it. You have at least 46 people that have voted and would use it if they understood it better. Over 60% of the votes would use Messiah as an option in their pipeline, given better education.

#25

however it is possible that as people get more educated, they begin realizing that there are serious problems that exist and they may vote differently as a result.

#26

I’ve said in serveral threads, they’d be better, given the size of the dev team concentrating 100% of their efforts on the animation side. On the animation part, I think they have something seriously good to offer. As stooch says, there are a LOT of renderers, and some really nice upcoming ones (modo201). The messiah:render part, I fear will just make the animation side less and less competitive. I just don’t understand the reasoning. Two or three people, to me, just doesn’t seem like anything like enoughpeople to develop BOTH animation and rendering. Charater animation, on the other hand, I feel, is specialist enough to be developed by say 3 or 4 people. Hey I could be wrong…Wish I was… :wink:

#27

Hi all

I’ve just added my vote, which is to say that I play around with it every now and then, but don’t really use it. I agree with a lot of the comments above; the renderer seems to suck up an enormous amount of development time, which appears to mean a slow-down in development of other parts of the software.

I recently tried to use the renderer to do some rendering (about two weeks ago), but as soon as I hit tab, the object disappeared and wouldn’t render. The object, which was originally created in Silo, rendered fine in Lightwave. Before this, objects would frequently turn green. I have had frequent crashes with high poly objects. When I bought a Studio license, I had seriously thought that the renderer would replace Lightwave’s - those Arnold renders looked (and probably still do look) fantastic. But I have never got results like that. It also now has to compete with Fprime, and soon with Modo 201.

Taron has got some superb results and so have one or two other users; one or two stunning renders such as the sea horses, and Thomas’s amazing abstract texture pieces, come to mind. These show that it can be done, and when I see them I am amazed at what the renderer can do. However, the good quality renders on public display are very few in number, which to me seems to show that not very many people are using the renderer.

Alex

#28

I think the development of the renderer is a good idea. They have started it, and they need to finish it, otherwise it was all wasted time…completely. Once they have it straight and working correctly, they can focus on bring the rest up-to-date. And as much as people say that the renderer is outdated, etc…etc. I don’t know your reasoning, but from what I’ve seen from various people its very capable, and very fast, and with a few tweaks it will be a successful addition. Plus, pmg including a renderer within the program opens it up to people that don’t have maya, xsi, lw to plug into…it gives pmg another market.

#29

if finishing the renderer just because they started it means sacrificing animator in the process, then ITS NOT A GOOD IDEA. Did you vote that you use is at work? because if you didnt, why would you be concerned with it being finished at the expense of animation? I think its painfully obvious as to what is more important in messiah, maybe we should start a poll as to WHY PEOPLE BOUGHT messiah, animation or rendering?

#30

This just means that you are trying to metanurb something that has either an n-gon or a something incompatible with Messiah. VERY easy to fix. Just remember to keep everything quads if you can and when you can’t. . . the occasional 3.

The object, which was originally created in Silo, rendered fine in Lightwave. Before this, objects would frequently turn green.

That just means you don’t have a material applied to the surface. Its that bright green to let you know “HEY YOU HAVEN’T TEXTURED ME YET!”

I have had frequent crashes with high poly objects.

THAT is suprising. I have had models with millions of polygons render just fine. Were you trying to displaced that high poly object?

When I bought a Studio license, I had seriously thought that the renderer would replace Lightwave’s - those Arnold renders looked (and probably still do look) fantastic. But I have never got results like that. It also now has to compete with Fprime, and soon with Modo 201.

Well I still assert that it does compete with those. Its just not as well documented so people (like yourself) feel frustrated.

Taron has got some superb results and so have one or two other users; one or two stunning renders such as the sea horses, and Thomas’s amazing abstract texture pieces, come to mind. These show that it can be done, and when I see them I am amazed at what the renderer can do. However, the good quality renders on public display are very few in number, which to me seems to show that not very many people are using the renderer.

:sad:

#31

You guys have to look at the resources PMG has and who is doing the programming on the render. Mostly Taron and Fori. These are incredibly talented coders, they have some ideas and implementations to the likes that you will never see implemented in any other 3D animation and Rendering Package. The problem in my eyes is that they simply need to have more programming power to get the releases to you guys. They put in all their time as it is. What the other companies have is simply resources and I think that PMG has competed quite well seeing the resources they have.

I am suggesting a Zbrush Central approach encouraging people to post their work and a place where everyone can look at what everyone is doing.

I used messiah’s renderer in production and let me tell you, for what I wanted to accomplish it gave me and my team well over what we wanted. i hope to show you guys what we worked on Soon as well as my other projects for rendering. Its very much complete and really when i have a question I just ask.

Bottom line and simply said, there are bigger and brighter things to focus about in the course of our life. If we need to use another 3D animation package to do our professional work there are other choices out there that do the job…probably not as good, but still they do the job well enough to make awesome movies, games, shows etc.

My hopes is that messiah gets an infusion of money and they start bringing on people!

#32

Hi Wegg

I didn’t know the green colour meant that, thanks for clearing that up. The n-gon issue is something I am aware of; if Lightwave can handle it, I would expect messiah to be able to too as LW doesn’t do n-gons either. Trying to sort out what may or may not be wrong with a model is just time wasted - I might as well render it somewhere else. But, I see from the hint list at the top of the forum that n-gons may be on the way, which will be cool.

What do you mean by your smiley at the bottom quote of my post? I don’t get it. Do you mean there is some good stuff on the way? : ) But, I think my point is valid; where are all the renders? Someone post some renders.

Alex

#33

I second that. I’d like to see a poll that compares usage of animation vs renderer. If the poll is cleverly thought out, then it could be really interesting. Any suggestions to the entries? Lets debate that a little before someone bangs up a poll. When we’re agreed, then we can start a poll and let the voting begin!..Unless you all think that’s a daft idea!!! :slight_smile:

I’ll give it a go…
Why did you buy Messiah?

  1. Purely for animating commercially and that is unlikely to change
  2. Purely for rendering commercially and that is unlikely to change
  3. Purely for animating commercially and I might look into the renderer
  4. Purely for rendering commercially and I might look into the animation
  5. For both animation and rendering commercially
    …and then the same again but for hobbyists instead of commercially.
#34

Hi Crossbones

Assuming you’re not under an NDA, please go ahead and post some of your renders. Thanks.

Alex

#35

I believe that is a frowny. :frowning:

#36

because you forgot to mention his badass renders :slight_smile: and they are badass, so ill vouch for them.

its ok wegg you arent forgotten lol :slight_smile:

#37

ha ha. . . no it wasn’t that.

Its just the fact that it hasn’t been embraced. That Cornell box was really cool but it seems like. . . with a few exceptions. . . everyone is scared to death of hitting F9 in Messiah. Yes I understand that you would like to see the animation tools improved but. . . <sigh> I don’t know what I’m saying.

Just. . .

:sad:

#38

your poll suggestion looks good to me dmack. you know my answer before we even start though.

and honestly, lets sit back and really look at what it is that can improve in messiah animation side. you know, its really not that bad.

-i can see armatures being 3d (check, from taron hints).
-improve the rotation coordinates to reduce gimal locks.
-give the expression editor search and replace function (relatively easy??)
-make more preset rigs for the setup box? (we can start a contest for making preset rigs and maybe include them with messiah releases? make the rigs in such a way taht you can drag around handles in setup mode to scale and reposition the rig elements while keeping it intact - WITH ARMATURES ALREADY ASSIGNED AND POSITIONED)
-better sbd?
-better connection to LW (more like point oven) i think in general, baking should be included and working nicely in messiah, its just too important for connecting to other apps!
-little changes to the way you interact with the widget, maybe make it optional to behave like LW for example…

not a big list if you ask me. that for me would already make messiah alot better for animation…

#39

lets do some more tests then! lets pick something interesting. or make something interesing.

#40

I’m busy trying to pay my bills.