help- Teaching Drawing to 9 Year Olds

[adam-crockett]

Sanne-Chan:

By th way, I learned something interesting today: did you know that adults have a view of 160 to 180 degrees, but that the view of children is actually smaller? It starts at almost nothing, and steadly gets wider when the child ages. Kids do not have “full view” untill they are about 14 years old. It’s not that important (unless they want to draw landscapes, maybe), but I thought it was funny

Wierd! I’ve never heard that before. Can you point me towards somewhere I can read more about that? That explains some things I’ve noticed about children : )

The wave:

I have two small children. I have been an artist for years freelancing and what-not. I have recently have began working with a very, very talented and gifted artist, and an old friend, on developing new and amazing ideas to put into 3D.

While he and I are drawing, my kids draw with us. One day while creating some amazing piece of work my son (10) looked at him and said how do you draw so good?

Damon replied, “Murder your darlings”.

My son said “What?”, trying to understand what he meant.

Instantly, Damon took his eraser and killed this AWESOME piece of drawing he had been working on for a while.

My son looked at him in wonder…and said “Why did you do that!?”

Damon replied “Because when you fall in love with a drawing and you are not willing to rework the piece, it loses it’s greatness”.

My son instantly understood exactly what he meant. Then my son later asked “How do you draw the way you do?”

Damon replied, “My father would put down Michaelangelo works in front of me and tell me to draw those.” Damon went on to explain “If you want to be able to draw great, you have to understand what great means”.

My son later that week picked up a book from the library of Michaelangelo artwork and began trying to recreate it.

My son later asked Damon “What can I do to be a better drawer?”

Damon said “Study from the best, like your dad, and the old masters.”

My son later asked, “How can I draw faces as good as yours?”

Damon replied “Sit down with your dad and draw his face while he draws yours”, then if you want to understand how the pieces of a face fit together, but a picture of someone’s face in half…tape that to a larger piece of paper and draw the other half."

I learned more from that session then I had in my life.

If you want to teach your children how to draw, then don’t be afraid to tell them what isn’t working as well as not being afraid to tell them what IS working.

They want to hear what makes them good as well as what they need to work on.

excellent anecdotes. I love the “murder your darlings” part. I’ve always told my students to do that, though I never had such a macabre phrasing for it. You have to let go of that part of the drawing that you love so much, or soon the whole thing centers around that one part, and it becomes difficult to progress. My brothertold me something that has always stuck with me, and that was, “once you mess up a piece (of art), its the most liberating thing in the world, because now you can do anything you want to it. It usually turns out better than the piece you’d originally envisioned” or something like that. I personally feel like a piece cannot be condsidered finished until I have completely reworked it at least 2 or 3 times.

Unah in particular gets very frustrated. She’s upset that she cannot draw like me. To which I reply, “if you could draw like me, I wouldn’t need to be here teaching you.” I try to get them to accept where they are at, so that they can move forward. She draws for a couple minutes and then dramatically leans back and exclaims “its TERRIBLE! I’ll never draw good!! wahhhhh!” Nevermind the fact that the drawing is already beautiful, and just needs more work. They are both very talented and creative, which is why I was excited to teach them. Instead I get a lot of resistance from them, like you often do between children and teachers. How do I get them to look up to me and learn willingly? I think that one problem is that its only once a week. I wish I had the time to go over there more often.

[Margie]

Sanne-Chan:
Wierd! I’ve never heard that before. Can you point me towards somewhere I can read more about that? That explains some things I’ve noticed about children : )

Apparantly that is why they fail at truely understanding perspective as well as the fact that the neurological “wiring” is not yet fully developed. I’ll see of I can find some articles on that. But as you observed so well here:

Unah in particular gets very frustrated. She’s upset that she cannot draw like me. To which I reply, “if you could draw like me, I wouldn’t need to be here teaching you.” I try to get them to accept where they are at, so that they can move forward. She draws for a couple minutes and then dramatically leans back and exclaims “its TERRIBLE! I’ll never draw good!! wahhhhh!” Nevermind the fact that the drawing is already beautiful, and just needs more work. They are both very talented and creative, which is why I was excited to teach them. Instead I get a lot of resistance from them, like you often do between children and teachers. How do I get them to look up to me and learn willingly? I think that one problem is that its only once a week. I wish I had the time to go over there more often.

they * crave * to understand it and get very frustrated when they don’t. The drawing of endless details, like mentioned earlier in this thread seems to be a * vital * stage in their ability to observe the world correctly. They are attempting to go from symbolism - the circle that represents nearly everything - to true observation.

A suggestion to counter the frustration (directly from Betty Edwards). Draw a few simple cubes in perspective and let them copy your drawing, without explaining the theory. The guidelines/grid suggested in Drawing on the Right Side might help a great deal. I’m not sure, I’ve never tried it with children that young.
The chapter on visual development in children (and as I understand it also the grid/guideline method), is included in the NEW Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain

This is a very interesting and educational thread!

[bupaje]

I wouldn’t worry too much about the Wahhhh! My son and nieces roll that out every so often and it helps to remember that they are developing on several levels simultaneously -not only gaining and exploring skills in art, social, cognitive and physical areas but emotional as well. Some of the wahhh! factor is ‘real’ as they learn to resolve situations and develop new skills but some is just a fascination with emotions and a discovery of themselves. I second the emphasis on fun, mix it up, break out some clay let them sculpt one day, paint another as they will still discover commonalities of form, texture etc. In fact maybe you can take a page from the daily sketch forum and have themes i.e. “this is monkey week” and let them explore everything from paper bag puppets, to jungle scenes, clay monkeys, to illustrating a monkey story to watching toons with monkeys. Maybe this broader focus on a subject but allowing them to express and ‘discover’ it in different ways would be helpful?

[jmBoekestein]

“Why is everybody else but me having cool stuff to do!!??!!”

[Sanne-chan]

“kill your darlings”

 *gulp*

I can’t do that… I redraw a certain piece if I think I could’ve done it better, but I do keep them , even if it’s just for comparisment. It’s fun to lay my pictures next to eachother on a table and see how much better the new one is. Then, I put them both in a plastic sheet and look at them again a few months later to laugh at the difference.
Ithink that might also be a good idea for kids. Finish the drawing, write the date on it and look at it again later, so they can see how much better they have become. It’ll boost their confidence. Besides that, I don’t know how sensitive YOUR pupils are, but if I was nine and someone made me erase my drawing of Goku from DragonballZ (don’t ask… ), I would cry and hide under my bed for the next five weeks.
Then again, I’m a wimp

P.S. I saw that thing on kids viewrange on tv, but I don’t remember the channel. It was Dutch, I believe. Anyway, they found this one out when trying to see why kids get hit by cars so much. Yes, especially younger kids get distracted by basically everything with a shadow, but they’re not stupid. A child of 10 should be able to pay attention to the enviroment and get out of the way when traffic arives (unless it’s going really fast of course). Still, they get A LOT more accidents. So much, that you can’t blame their short attention span. That’s why people started to investigate and eventually found out that their view takes a lot of time to develop. That’s why children under 14 are way more likely to be hit by a car, simply because they can not see it coming until it’s too late. :sad:

[Dagar]

Here is a great link (Mark Kistler)for kids to learn to draw. It may seem hokey to us adults but he has some amazing ways for you to look at things. And I am sure they will start to expand on what they will learn from these books and his videos/dvds. The thing I think is cool is he talks to the kids on their level. Things they will understand.

I remember watching his pbs show and thinking-wow…I never thought to look at things so simply.

Hope this works. My 9 and 7 year old are into drawing and I have tons of how to draw books that I let them use. How to draw animals, monsters, people, and just about anything I can find on breaking drawings to simple shapes.

[seven6ty1]

Just a quick 2 cents worth. But I’d say, don’t even think about the vocabulary words for everything. I think they’ll be much more likely to be able to pick it up if you show them visually, which I’m sure you’re doing. But just possibly try to concentrate on visual examples and having them repeat those, instead of spending 20 minutes trying to teach them the conceptual differences between horizontal, vertical and diagonal. I’m sure once they can repeat what you’re talking about they will be much more likely to grasp the technical terms for everything.

[adam-crockett]

Here is a great link (Mark Kistler)for kids to learn to draw. It may seem hokey to us adults but he has some amazing ways for you to look at things. And I am sure they will start to expand on what they will learn from these books and his videos/dvds. The thing I think is cool is he talks to the kids on their level. Things they will understand.

I remember watching his pbs show and thinking-wow…I never thought to look at things so simply.

Hope this works. My 9 and 7 year old are into drawing and I have tons of how to draw books that I let them use. How to draw animals, monsters, people, and just about anything I can find on breaking drawings to simple shapes.

Thanks For the link Dagar! I’ll take a look at those : )

[adam-crockett]

Just a quick 2 cents worth. But I’d say, don’t even think about the vocabulary words for everything. I think they’ll be much more likely to be able to pick it up if you show them visually, which I’m sure you’re doing. But just possibly try to concentrate on visual examples and having them repeat those, instead of spending 20 minutes trying to teach them the conceptual differences between horizontal, vertical and diagonal. I’m sure once they can repeat what you’re talking about they will be much more likely to grasp the technical terms for everything.

Im inclined to agree with you there. I would just lose them when I tried to get them to understand concepts. Now I just try to get them to have fun with it and enjoy it.

[Atrokkus]

It’s so great that you teach these girls drawing from such a small age. I wish I could turn back time of my youth and start drawing a little earlier, and, most importantly, with much more vigor. People, generally, get their talents along with their life, with their first breath. However, developing this talent is not something that is given. That was my problem early on: I’ve been way too lazy to work a lot on my early works, I was switching my interests too often (one day I’m all into 3dsmax, the other day i’m drawing portraits, etc), never really concentrating on something. And I’ve never had a tutor, so in my case self-discipline was so much more needed than to some who attend art-schools and the like.

I believe that no teacher, no matter how great, cannot imbue his student with a talent. However, it is the teacher’s duty to keep his student on track, to keep him motivated, and discipline him, make him motivate himself, and not being lazy in his studies. The rest will come naturally, through practice.

Anyways, I wish you and your apprentises well!

[Sanne-chan]

I just thought of something that might motivate them to practise. Do you have any old drawings from the time you were their age? That way they can see what they can accomplish if they practise long enough

[adam-crockett]

It’s so great that you teach these girls drawing from such a small age. I wish I could turn back time of my youth and start drawing a little earlier, and, most importantly, with much more vigor. People, generally, get their talents along with their life, with their first breath. However, developing this talent is not something that is given. That was my problem early on: I’ve been way too lazy to work a lot on my early works, I was switching my interests too often (one day I’m all into 3dsmax, the other day i’m drawing portraits, etc), never really concentrating on something. And I’ve never had a tutor, so in my case self-discipline was so much more needed than to some who attend art-schools and the like.

I believe that no teacher, no matter how great, cannot imbue his student with a talent. However, it is the teacher’s duty to keep his student on track, to keep him motivated, and discipline him, make him motivate himself, and not being lazy in his studies. The rest will come naturally, through practice.

Anyways, I wish you and your apprentises well!

Thanks Metallix. The girls are pretty creative and talented already, which is why I was excited about giving them some direction. Keeping them on track…now THERE’S a challenge!

[adam-crockett]

I just thought of something that might motivate them to practise. Do you have any old drawings from the time you were their age? That way they can see what they can accomplish if they practise long enough

Thats an interesting idea. Im not sure if I have any art that old around here, but Im pretty sure that my mom kept a bunch. Id have to call her and see if she can scan it and send it my way. Wait… hee hee, maybe I’ll post some of that here. Maybe start a whole new thread. It probably already been done.

[Hugh-Jass]

hey adam! it’s “me”

I had typed areally long thingie over the weekend when the forums were all goofy and it just wouldn’t post.

so in summary from what I remember

variety in exercises…keep it playful

keep them interested
tracing shadows…to sort of indirectly teach neg space and graphic shape
profiles, hands, leaf…whatever…then you can ask them to try and do familiar objects from their imaginations as outlines
draw from memory (show them something…then hide it)
drawing without looking…always kooky fun
collage, mix up the media every now and then, watercolor…
draw/express vocabulary… inside… velocity… hungry… excited… compassion…messy
simultaneous portaits…facing each other drawing at same time…it’s fun simply because they wind up cracking up trying to look up at the same time

you can do those as warm ups without drawing from observation and then try and apply them to observation later or in a separate lesson

[adam-crockett]

hey adam! it’s “me”

I had typed areally long thingie over the weekend when the forums were all goofy and it just wouldn’t post.

so in summary from what I remember

variety in exercises…keep it playful

keep them interested
tracing shadows…to sort of indirectly teach neg space and graphic shape
profiles, hands, leaf…whatever…then you can ask them to try and do familiar objects from their imaginations as outlines
draw from memory (show them something…then hide it)
drawing without looking…always kooky fun
collage, mix up the media every now and then, watercolor…
draw/express vocabulary… inside… velocity… hungry… excited… compassion…messy
simultaneous portaits…facing each other drawing at same time…it’s fun simply because they wind up cracking up trying to look up at the same time

you can do those as warm ups without drawing from observation and then try and apply them to observation later or in a separate lesson

Hey Chris! Good to hear from you. Thanks for pitching in!
Good suggestions all… I’ll try to work them in. (Im going to have to print out this thread to work through all this stuff.) We have actually done collage. That was the last class I did with them actually. (Its been a while now…must just be the holiday season) I should scan the collages and post them here. Hope their mom still has them.

I like the dual self portrait idea, though they are very competitve, so it might cause problems : )

Are these exercises from personal experience? I dont remember if you have kids.

[Hugh-Jass]

I like the dual self portrait idea, though they are very competitve, so it might cause problems : )

Are these exercises from personal experience? I dont remember if you have kids.

I have a two year old who draws on her own so i haven’t started her art boot camp yet

as for experience with the suggestions
some are from memory from grade school…
some I made up… based on some language exercises I used to teach
(when i was you know where)…drawings were very useful in getting 10 year olds enthusiastic about english. they loved my drawing on the whiteboard in the lessons

but similar to starting a figure drawing class w/ gestures…to warm up…in language and I suspect with almost anything with young kids…you grab their attention with something quick and fun…sometimes reviewing previous lesson concept…then you move on to new territory or a longer lesson… give them some sort of choice in what they do so they feel like they have input in what they are doing, but not so much that they don’t have a clear direction

since they are compettitive you could do the dual portaits as a “showdown” where you time ten second intervals for them to trade roles …back and forth …and then see what comes up after a minute of that.

an example of choice is giving options for same assignment… draw one of these following words or pick any thing from this still life and make it aliive (add arms and legs etc)

the main thing is kids like to be creative …so you can make any dry assignment silly…

[Beef_Cake]

Have you tried doing some basic water coloring?

I’m still in high school at the moment and that is one thing we are about to be working on. I know it can get pretty complex if you go into all of the different washes and what not but if you kept it simple I’m sure they could have fun with it.

A friend of mine recently did a water color of a character from an anime called “Full Metal Panic” and it turned out really well. He didn’t get really detailed in layering the different opacities either. You stated earlier that there was a manga that they liked to draw. Get them to draw either a picture from memory or a picture they pick from that show and get them to do a simple water color.

The best thing about water color is that it’s interesting and they don’t really have to know the many different techniques there are to get interesting results. You might could tell them how they can add more water to the paint to make it lighter and doing the opposite to make it darker. This might help them thing about contrast a bit even though they won’t know it. Anime and manga have shadows even though they’re simplified.

Some of that might be getting a little advanced. I know I’m still learning. I am simple amazed when I come to this site even though I just recently discovered it (this will be my second post on these forums). This thread has given me a lot of inspiration. I have trouble getting myself to draw even though I have the urge to I just can’t bring my self to get my imagination working and get my ideas on paper. That is my $.02 though. I hope I was able to contribute to the discussion here. I must say I feel most inferior while perusing around the site!

[adam-crockett]

Have you tried doing some basic water coloring?

I’m still in high school at the moment and that is one thing we are about to be working on. I know it can get pretty complex if you go into all of the different washes and what not but if you kept it simple I’m sure they could have fun with it.

A friend of mine recently did a water color of a character from an anime called “Full Metal Panic” and it turned out really well. He didn’t get really detailed in layering the different opacities either. You stated earlier that there was a manga that they liked to draw. Get them to draw either a picture from memory or a picture they pick from that show and get them to do a simple water color.

The best thing about water color is that it’s interesting and they don’t really have to know the many different techniques there are to get interesting results. You might could tell them how they can add more water to the paint to make it lighter and doing the opposite to make it darker. This might help them thing about contrast a bit even though they won’t know it. Anime and manga have shadows even though they’re simplified.

Some of that might be getting a little advanced. I know I’m still learning. I am simple amazed when I come to this site even though I just recently discovered it (this will be my second post on these forums). This thread has given me a lot of inspiration. I have trouble getting myself to draw even though I have the urge to I just can’t bring my self to get my imagination working and get my ideas on paper. That is my $.02 though. I hope I was able to contribute to the discussion here. I must say I feel most inferior while perusing around the site!

Well, I do want to introduce them to different media, so I’d definitely have to include watercolors in there sometime. I find watercolor a very difficult medium to wrangle, but I like it a lot.

Dont worry about what to draw right now. Just enjoy the process of drawing. Making marks on paper is an enjoyable physical activity. A lot of times people think that they have to have an idea what to draw before they start in. Sometimes that helps, but really you can just dig in and start drawing. Change things as you feel like it on down the road. Just ENJOY drawing! Copy magazines, comics, pause a frame on your favorite movie and draw that. Collage a picture together from magazines and reinterprit it into a drawing. You dont really need an idea of what to draw. Personally, I just like to draw, and I’ll sit down and start drawing and see what happens… basically just letting my hand run on automatic (Dali called them automatic drawings, in fact) and then when something catches my attention, I’ll manipulate it into something recogniseable. (Dori’s song: Just keep drawing, just keep drawing)

[Hugh-Jass]

you ever do the watercolor spatter with a toothbrush and running your finger accrooss the bristles to spray on to paper?

the other thing which I always liked is putting a little pool of water color down and blowing it accrossthe paper with a straw…you can get some crazy branching too.

Potato prints, potato prints, potato prints… just had to throw that in there ( if you can safely manage the carving part)

also let them get the coffee stain effect…where you let the pool of water color dry and the majority of the pigment go to edges so you get those cool edges.

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