But see, that’s not the case here is it? Gnomon Studios does not bid on projects. The two projects mentioned came to Alex directly from friends. So Alex, thinking of ways to help gnomon students gain production experience, offers an opportunity to help him on these projects.
Atleast that’s how i see that last part going down. And as nice as having a credit for working on plus minus… i mean fringe and green lantern on your resume? Those opportunities look like they won’t happen anymore now.
Are you saying that Fox didn’t pay Gnomon to work on Fringe and WB on Green Lantern? I highly doubt it. And, how many artists didn’t work in the 6 weeks that it took to get Gnomon Studios employees … err, Gnomon students … to complete the work.
Now, how much did Gnomon undercut other studios in their costs since their labor force PAID to be there? What kind of precedent does that set? How many other producers would jump at the chance to lower the costs by using students of the caliber as the ones who PAY to go to Gnomon to get their effects work done?
So, picture yourself as being one of the group that PAID to work on these shows. You gleefully run out of your Gnomon education with the frames from actual TV shows and films on your reel. You start to scour the job boards and network with your fellow students eager to show off your qualifications to the first employer you find, only to discover that they’ve decided to start using cheap labor to get the job done too.
Oh, and its against the law. I think I’ve mentioned that a few times.
yeah, that’s not what said at all.
And I do understand what you’re saying and agree. It’s just that in this case i can’t seem to find a fault with gnomon. My opinion really and the law is the law and if it was broken then situation will be dealt with. I still like the opportunity Alex gave these voluntary students who now are at some pretty high end studios.
As far as employers seeking cheaper labor. That’s already happening, but that’s for another thread.
I would say the students gave him more and that it was also in his own interest, now he can put a few stars also on his resume. It actually is a Triple Dipping, because the students have spruce up his image too, paid for it and didn’t get paid. To me it all sounds like a better deal for Gnomon. At least they received a position in some high end studios, if that is really true.
May I suggest that if your looking for experience or footage for your demo reel and willing to work for free, then why not work on some small guerilla film which has no budget and needs some kick arse vfx?
I don’t know, it just feels to me like there are projects out there which are much more worthy of your (free and unpaid) time than one of the main Hollywood studios.
I wouldn’t. Sure, I am not a student, so perhaps I am not the demographic you’re posing the question to - however, I am answering because AVTPro said in an earlier post that even after he’d entered the professional field, he did a six month unpaid internship. That’s not, as he claims, “business smart”, that’s just allowing yourself to be exploited, and sending out the message that you don’t even value your own abilities as an experienced professional. Furthermore, it not only damages you, it also cheapens the entire field, because if you do it, then studios expect more people to be suckers too.
Yeah, there are loads of projects out there like this. Sites like youtube and vimeo have provided an open platform for creative people everywhere. Film makers have the best exposure opportunities to the world than ever before.
I want say something, Stan cleaned up his post after my rebuttal, then the rest was just instigation, so everything was cool with me at that point and I elaborated. The post since then have been very intelligible beside on or two hecklers. Thanks to very one who stood up for civil minded thinking and discussion. That’s CGtalk being CGtalk.
Anyway, couple of points after reading some posts.
How much money would a student make if Alex wasn’t telling them what to do? $0
How much money would they make if they had to get a film project without Alex? $0
How much money will they make when their resume says working on the project with Alex?
Priceless. $$$$$$$$$$$
Last one, these were “Student”…NOT EVEN INTERNS. Interns have been “qualify” as someone an employ could be train for to become a worker. Interns are still responsible for being on the job, and getting the job done. INTERNS can GET FIRED…STUDENTS can’t.
In the heirarchical structure of the corporate ladder…e.i. “Pecking Order”. Students are below INTERNS.
These were even interns and the job of the intern is to gain access and experience to a job that they have “choosen”. So these students were getting ON THE JOB INTERN EXPERIENCE UNDER A MASTER ARTIST, that most “interns” would kiill for.
These student can’t be FIRED. They could not show up, and nothing would happen to them.
There RENT was not depended on doing to job right. They were free from consequence.
Alex was doing THEM a favor. He was putting his butt on line for them. And anyone who has seen a gnomon DVD has to know this about Alex. He even said He was “halted” from paying by the school accountant.
These student only had to do their best and be who they said the wanted to be. It was cheese cake for them in the sense that they had no professional responsiblity to the course.
Anyone who has had a project riding on their back would kill to have an Alex Alvarez telling them how to become UNSTUCK when you have a BUDGET, Paid people, and your Pay for food, riding on your back.
If you are doing a project and that’s not your concerns that not even a REAL JOB.
It all fell on Alex. At most he will hire them as freelancers outside of his own school who prevented him for paying them. At most this should be a lessoned learned and retificfied.
Not hang him High…especially from those who have watch his DVDs and I would say that’s Most of us in this industry. tsck.
Really, just because you have a computer and software doesn’t make you a value to the market. Alex is a value to the industry. His school has changed the life of many artist who can’t be in that town or school. His DVD has cause me to employ people who are not even in my town and help people who are in my town. FOR YEARS…and for any to think his is shady is unmerited, especially when his school is doing so when and people in the industry come to him for help.
Beside I know he is doing well because I bought every last DVD of artist he is also promoting on DVDs. Hahaha. :applause:
Those are just assumptions, not facts.
Last one, these were “Student”…NOT EVEN INTERNS. Interns have been “qualify” as someone an employ could be train for to become a worker. Interns are still responsible for being on the job, and getting the job done. INTERNS can GET FIRED…STUDENTS can’t.
In the heirarchical structure of the corporate ladder…e.i. “Pecking Order”. Students are below INTERNS.
It’ll obviously come as a surprise to you then that most American studios who accept interns only accept interns who are currently enrolled in schools. In other words, students.
You display a rather remarkable lack of respect for students. Why the animosity? There are students these days whose skills would kick your and my ass any day of the week.
I’d like to know how many of you artists out here would not forfeit the $3.5K for a chance to work at ILM or any of the other studios…
I’m not here to stir this bees nest, but when I read things like this it makes me cringe. Industry hopefuls that value themselves this way is the reason some studios can operate without giving compensation to thier artists. I’m not going to mention it by name, but there is a big name studio in Vancouver that does not pay people for working on weekends. I don’t mean not paying OT, I mean you go in on a Saturday, put in your 10 hours, and walk out without a paycheck. Maybe Sunday too. This is why IATSE has thier eye on VFX houses. I have been privvy to some scary discussions on that front. I won’t touch that here. but rest assured my jaw was on the floor when I heard how some studios operate.
To those of us that are more senior: If you know of a junior artist that is being exploited, consider using some of that seniority and your ‘company value’ to help them out. Even if you just tell the producer that the dude doing UV’s in the corner is worth more than $0/hr. Let them know if he’s doing a great job. I am aware its easy for me to sit back safe and offer advice, but I do still remember that long struggle for that first job… Dying for any nibble on my reel, willing to take anything just to get my foot in the door. You should do what you need to do, but please don’t allow yourself to be taken advantage of.
A final nugget of advice you to those of you that are looking for your first job.
In marketing, the number one rule of percieved value is “Don’t give away anything for free.” Doing so decreases the perceived value because people usually associate the lower priced product as being one of worse quality.
Kitten pile.
So, in retrospect, do you think it’s better to have a big studio on your resume, or to build your own personal brand?
Over in Web-developer land, things are shifting to a stronger influence on personal brand. Sure, you may have worked at Google or Facebook, but if all you did was make coffee does it really matter?
For me, working at CGS is great because I play a large part in how things are done, I can point to a URL and say “Hey, I made that work”.
Sorry it’s not talking about the Gnomon but If you can make a coffee in Google or Facebook you’re better than coffee maker in the small office right 
Hmmm… Personally I have tried to take both approaches for myself. Back in 2005(?) I switched my CGS useername from Rhonedog to my real name MikeRhone. I spent a lot of time helping people in the Maya forums, so I figured I might as well slap my name on it. It’s worked. A few people have come up to me over the years and said “Hey! I know you from cgTalk!”. I don’t know if I have a ‘Brand’ so much, but I have tried to make ‘Mike Rhone’ the VFX guy easy to find. Branding works great for people like Kolby Jukes, Ian Joyner, Todd Widup, Jason Schiefflelerlelrelshrreler… I have no idea where these guys work currently or what thier full credits are, but thier names are out front and centre as top-shelf talent.
As far as having a big studio credit… In big places like London and LA, no one cares what studio you worked at. In fact, here in London they just assume you’ve done time at all of the 5 big ones. Vancouver studios tend to be a bit more ‘Starstuck’ by a good IMDB. That’s changing a bit now that Vancouver gets some bigger projects and studios. The sad fact is that some of the best people I have ever worked with only have straight-to-DVD credits, but what shows up on your IMDB still counts for a lot up there. These people have great reputations around town, so they easily get by on thier ‘street cred’ without even having to register on the IMDB. These are the secret weapons that tend to get missed by recruiters and HR, though.
Haha, well thats my long answer… To anyone that wants to build thier online presense… Get a webpage and learn what SEF and SEO is…!
I am not sure about that, because the students did him a favor too. I don’t know if you know but students at Gnomon have to show already a kick ass portfolio to have just a seat, he as a Director knows if they can do the job or not, he was never in the situation to put his butt in line for them, because the students were good enough to take away the risk that they would fail.
He said he was halted to pay them, but if he really wanted to reward them he could have done it, lots of possibilities to reward them. Since I don’t think he is an uncreative guy, he should be in the position to manage rewards without paying them cash.
Saying things like: “I am a extremely pro artist business owner and have probably done more to promote and expose artists than most people in the industry.” without realizing that artists have helped him much more to promote his business is simple arrogant.
As a fringe dweller to the industry I get the same impression - I know people by name, and by credit, but am usually left scratching my head when it comes to studio names - partly because I’m so bored with Hollywood now but mostly because a studio is only as good as it’s talent, be it Pixar, or The Asylum (although admittedly one seems to attract more than the other 
)
See the thing is, in my experience (working in NZ and UK, can’t speak for the US, Canada or Oz) - you can get this same experience while learning from a bunch of the best artists and getting paid to work on feature films.
The pay is not fantastic - although when I was a trainee it was about double the minimal wage.
My two cents:
I had a similar experience while in school, one of my teachers asked the students to supply manpower to an animation series pilot he was developing with another teacher in another university. Our school would develop the 3D, while the other school would develop the 2D. If the project were sold, and an animation studio were set up to produce it, the students would get first priority on jobs within that animation studio.
I suppose the difference to the gnomon case was that we weren’t using school time ( which we had paid for ), but our own personal free time to contribute to the project -the project was done during school summer break, in the school’s computer labs - and the project wan’t a live, real production, but speculative work.
Obviously, my school, while good, isn’t on par with Gnomon in terms of industry recognition, nor our production would have the same impact as a project such as the green lantern or fringe.
The underlying philosophy is roughly the same, though.
While I can appreciate Alex’s good intentions in this particular case, and I can appreciate that students need to pay their dues to get into the industry, this is not the most correct way to go about it.
In regards to my personal experience, if I knew then what I know now, I would probably invest the same time, in doing my own work as opposed to working on somebody else’s project. Although obviously there is time for that later, during our professional life ( in which most probably we will end up working on other people’s project and finding no time for our own ), I believe school should be a time for exploration and developing our own personal style, and if we are lucky, our artistic voice. :arteest:
After all ( and again not to compare my own education to any other ) but we could never say that the students that every year come out of Supinfocom or Gobelins do not have enough chops to work on big productions - and they work on no one’s projects but their own, during their time there.
There are many paths to our final destination, and ways to learn - but the case in point, although there are nuances to it, should not be tolerated, and least of all encouraged.
Just my 2c.
Well, I may have misunderstood the concept myself ( as english is not my first language ) but what I meant by paying my dues is putting in the hard work and long hours needed to get your work up to par with industry standards - not working for free ( or worse, paying to work ) on someone else’s projects. Hope that made my point clearer.
I was on the brink to response to this quote too, which Leigh has responded.
I am glad to read now that you didn’t mean what I was thinking.
You are absolutelly right, study means hard work.
But again, if the stuff you produce is good enough to be on sale, you shouldn’t give it away for free and if someone else makes good money with it, it would be your good right to receive dues.
Working for free on profit oriented projects doesn’t only damages you and cheapens the entire field, it also demolishes jobs.
