nope its the truth
thats what messiah is. it started its life as a lw plugin. it needs hair/cloth/native format saving to really function as a true standalone. I mean, unless you are happy with making naked and bald characters…
anyway, whats wrong with customising? i cant imagine how anyone could organize all the features of maya that will appeal to everyone. That is an impossible task. The whole point is that you CAN customise it to look like anything. you really cant ask for more…
I know Maya have a lot of features… hair, particles, volumetrics… and so on.
There is a problem when you already use another 3D software, everything is harder to learn… I don´t know why… I try to make same things in lightwave way in maya (or 3Ds max), and was frustrating. Surely If I was a new in 3D it would be more easy.
I just want to animate 3D characters… I am not looking for a good volumetric system, or hair, or whatever… I want to take a model, make a very good rig or that software does for me automatically or semi-automatically, have a lot of handlers and possibilitys.
I just guess if Maya and Messiah have the same rig and animation possibilitys… is maya powerfull to animate? (surely!) but… how much more that messiah?.. that is my question.
I saw many people use maya, for example, animationmentor.com use maya, they teach just animation… when you see a good (and just) animation demoreel, almost always was made in maya… that is because I have a doubt… they use maya to animate because it is more powerfull or because it is more popular?
I don´t want to buy a expensive software just beacuse it is popular (in addition to their possibilitys) , if I have another software with the same performance.
if both (maya & messiah) have same tools, or you can make same rigs and animation, with the same relative facility… I will buy messiah, if I will need something more I will use Lightwave.
but if maya, have more riging options, or animation options, or pmG will not update to have these options in …I will buy Maya.
does messiah come with a printed manual or just a digital?
and sorry for my english, I am not a native english speaker.
SORRY animotion, we seem to have drifted way off what you were originally asking.
From your last post, both Messiah and Maya (and xsi) will meet your needs no problem.
If you already have LW experience you’ll rock in messiah pretty quickly.
Maya and XSI are much more widely used than messiah, which has a bit of a rep as a cult act or “just a ightwave plugin”
The truth is that each does some things better than the others. The best choice you can make will be based on your preferance and wallet.
So try the demos and put the time in. For price the workstation version of messiah will meet all your needs and then some. XSI foundation is a bit more pricey, but still dirt cheap really and you can model in it. Maya is becoming the photoshop of 3d in terms of usage so may be the best option from a career POV.
Your needs will be well met by any of these packages though.
At work It’s a Maya world for me (but I have a Lightwave license on my kit). at home (when it’s my money I’m spending) I use messiah and Silo. ($350 for the pair!)
On the thread title, I’m sure there will be more versions coming, but everyone is worried about Messiah keeping pace with other apps. It doesn’t have a yearly release schedule like Maya or 3dstudio (which I haven’t touched in years and understand to be really quite good now… another possibility into the mix) nor does it have a publicised roadmap. All of which worried me before buying. Now that I have it and have found workarounds for t bits that are bugged I don’t worry about updates. Right now it fullfills all my needs and I feel I’ve got my moneys worth, the holes can be covered by hosting in Lightwave (or maya or max). when I really need hair or cloth etc and can’t use mapped ribbons of polys or soft bodies or blending discplacement to cover those things
Apart from z brush and pelt mapping (both modelling and texturing innovations) or Ambient Occlussion Radiosity/ final gather per pixel displacemnet etc (all rendering techniques)
when it comes to animation and rigging there has been very little change in the last ten years really. (the only big thing I can thik of is using joystick controllers)
Hope this helps,'cause I’ve been ranting for ages!
In approxemately 2001 I “invested” in Maya 4.5, but because I never have upgrade it, I’m now not even allowed to upgrade to a newer version, no matter how much I pay!!! I did also “invest” in an expensive dongle to avoid having my license node-locked, totaly waste of money, because I can’t use it if I’m forced to buy a brand new Maya license! This sucks so much that I will forever hate ALIAS!
I did get a warning that this could happen and I had a “chance” to upgrade to Maya 6, but since it was a lot of money and I didn’t need the new features I didn’t take the “Opportunity”… what a strain… Coming from LW Alias is like the mafia, no thanks!
But… Maya is really useful if you can afford it. When I have to create complex animations I keep working in my old Maya 4.5, but with a bad feeling.
I really hope that PMG has listen to me and others begging for FreezeTransformations, WeightPainting and a more tight IK-system! I will not argue about this again, but these are the reasons why I still prefer to animate in Maya(4.5).
But I would love to prefer Messiah! :sad::bowdown::drool:
/ Svante
I think that you missed the point or I’m interpreting the post differently. the whole tone of the thread has been that Maya has much more depth and capability out of the box, just that the most common things are done better in smaller “more limited” packages that feel more focussed for a specific task. Maya does everything, but the downside of that is to get a good workflow on a specific task you have to do a lot of customisation or stick with the default which is a bit clunky
I think that your assesment of Messiah as just a LW plugin is a little unfair?
Edit@@ Aw, you did an edit under me, Now I look like a psycho!
Yeah. I know Maya can do MORE out of box. Michael-Williamson interpreted it correctly.
nope its the truth
thats what messiah is. it started its life as a lw plugin. it needs hair/cloth/native format saving to really function as a true standalone. I mean, unless you are happy with making naked and bald characters…anyway, whats wrong with customising? i cant imagine how anyone could organize all the features of maya that will appeal to everyone. That is an impossible task. The whole point is that you CAN customise it to look like anything. you really cant ask for more…
Hair and cloth do not make a program a standalone product. If that was the case, then Poser should function just fine for you;) since it does have hair and cloth. By the way the hair in XSI adv is not that great. So make sure to research that. Thought I’d suggest since I know you are looking at XSI. Messiah is standalone enough for most productions there are many different ways to create hair, cloth effects, etc.
yep. same feeling here. i PREFER to animate in messiah but cant trust complex stuff to it.
yes i can use ribbons for hair or the very limited sbd for cloth. but it will look like shit when compared to real cloth and real hair. I can even make do without real cloth, just better, more stable, more accurate sbds. I cannot do without hair, its 2006, hair poly ribbons are behind the times. Thats also the reason why i dropped LW. I got sick of waiting on worley to deliver and maya has gotten alot more stable and bulletproof (But alas not perfect)
looking into xsi but that program isnt that stable, im still giving it a shot just a bit dissapointed so far. Im hoping its my ignorance to blame for the crashes i experienced so far.
well since you are new to messiah, take my word for it. there are NO ways to make hair in messiah. Not real hair that is. Like i said above, poly ribbons do not cut it. The cloth does not exist in messiah and the sbds are marginal from my experience. Yes i consider poser standalone, it can do what it intends to do without relying on external applications. i do not use poser because my needs do not coincide with its capabilities (or intentions). You cannot do what i require in messiah withouth external applications. you are required to use plugins to “connect” messiah to the applications i use. How is that standalone?
Swapping stuff should be a matter of saving a file in messiah, not having both apps open and bounce back and forth. Someone will surely chime in and tell me to buy point oven - yet another external application that serves as a bandaid and yet again forces me to depend on a third party.
anyway, this thread isnt about bitching. I feel this thread is about pointing out what I consider lacking. I would rather hear people speak up and say what needs to be done instead of making excuses - especially if they barely have experience using messiah in production.
also, im sure messiah is adequate to some - to tinker in their spare time while using complete programs at work. I do not see that as a good place for messiah to be in. Messiah needs to be the one being used at work… and clients expect the kind of results they are used to from programs like maya and xsi. Especially when you are talking about character animation.
maybe the thread should have been labeled, will messiah have what it takes to regain the edge? I have no doubts there will be updates, the question is - what are these updates? what is the roadmap? Is there a roadmap?
p.s. I keep on talking about connecting messiah to other programs. But to be honest, if messiah had hair and good, accurate SBD/cloth, i would have no need to connect it to anything. I would shelve maya and xsi and just do all of my work with messiah. That would be the day of joy… Infact i would be in heaven and actually use the render side of the program!
If you were to use messiah only to export your scene to maya to do cloth and hair, might as well just save yourself the trouble and the money and just do it all in maya … that is the fundamental problem with this solution.
I agree hair and true cloth would be great, yet I do not think that warrants not labeling Messiah as having enough capabilities to be labeled standalone. But what do I know.
Anyway. To the original poster. I’m sorry we’ve kind of got off track here. As I said. Try them both and see what fits you best. And I wish you luck in your decision.
heh, ok well agree to disagree then. btw the original question:
further versions, to be or not to be?
the original poster isnt asking about what “fits him best” or whether the program deserves to be called stand-alone…
I am going to say that if he hopes to have a career, maya without question is the program to learn. Price is not a question, get the PLE. I think messiah is cheap enough to get as well, im tempted to say get both, but i really dont see a reason to separate your workflow like that if maya can do everything to begin with. If you want to do simple, non - character animation and make money doing it, i can see messiah being able to do it. if he was getting lightwave, i would say get messiah without a question, he will need it. I can see using messiah and silo or messiah and modo. But getting messiah and maya or xsi just seems like a waste.
Just wanted to add my note of agreement with every point you’ve made regarding messiah. As an early on purchaser of the pMG product in addition to the Macroform product I feel I have a right to voice my displeasure with the product’s development.
Has there even been a single production yet that has used the pMG renderer?
Sorry, I was referring to videos and was hoping to hear about some production facility that has been using it on a regular basis. I see single frame renders frequently and many of those are quite nice.
My statement still is true. 
Sorry for being sucha smarty pants, but I know that Messiah is used in production for rendering videos (because I did for example). I just don’t have the time and energy to search some out for you. But do a search and you will find them on cgTalk.
Originally Posted by Tama
Has there even been a single production yet that has used the pMG renderer?
As Alex said. Yes. Thats why its inaccurate to state that Messiah can not be used in a production environment.
A short list:
Fallen Art.
Reeker
SA Sports Hall of Fame.
SuddenLink Commercial.
Primeval.
Cactus Project.
The orange peel.
Various projects from Passion Pictures.
Wonka Television commercials.
Thunderball commercials.
Colgate commercials.
Perhaps we can make a list and sticky it. So people know that it can be used in a production environment.
I think its a reasonable assessment to label Messiah as working well in a small studio. Or an individual freelancing. Or in a large studio using Lightwave.
I listen “Jimmy Neutronic” was done with messiah, early episodes… or did was done with LW?
Thanks for the links. 
They should be put into a sticky. I’m not sure about Passion Pictures using pMG’s renderer for their projects though. Any links to verify that?
Thanks for the links.
They should be put into a sticky. I’m not sure about Passion Pictures using pMG’s renderer for their projects though. Any links to verify that?
Not sure about that. I’m not sure they still use Messiah even.
jimmy neutron the movie was modeled and render on Lw and all the animation was done with Messiah
after, all the series where done using maya and rendered with LW, today i think they only use maya,
pasion picture use messiah animate for catwoman with halley barry (they dont render with messiah, at least for that movie)
now they moved to XSI
i thought fallen art was rendered with mental ray, only the animation was done with messiah and exported into max?