further versions, to be or not to be?

#1

I am thinking buy Messiah or maya to animate characters…
I know maya is more expensive, but it is more spread, there are more info & tutorials… and jobs opportunities (I think so)… but Messiah is more cheap… and I use to work with Lightwave & Modo. it will be a easy step to me (I think)

I don´t use Messiah, don´t yet, and I guess Messiah will have further versions.
I listen that pmG isn´t work as they used to do when Messiah began… and there isn´t any important update for a long time…
there is anybody know pmG think or is working in further Messiah versions?
Thanks so much.

Nobody wants to have software with not future… and maybe pmG will not want to talk about they possible problems (if they exist), to affect the sales… I understand.

#2

I am thinking buy Messiah or maya to animate characters…
I know maya is more expensive, but it is more spread, there are more info & tutorials… and jobs opportunities (I think so)… but Messiah is more cheap… and I use to work with Lightwave & Modo. it will be a easy step to me (I think)

I don´t use Messiah, don´t yet, and I guess Messiah will have further versions.
I listen that pmG isn´t work as they used to do when Messiah began… and there isn´t any important update for a long time…
there is anybody know pmG think or is working in further Messiah versions?
Thanks so much.

Nobody wants to have software with not future… and maybe pmG will not want to talk about they possible problems (if they exist), to affect the sales… I understand.

A few ways to look at it. If you plan on sticking with Lightwave and Modo. Go for Messiah. Its a good deal and intergrates well with Lightwave. So it would be a useful tool.

If you don’t want to stick with Lightwave and Modo. It might be a good idea to go with Maya.

You also need to consider the learning level. Maya has lots of resources, but it has them for a reason. It needs them. Messiah is designed to animate. If you want to animate Messiah is the way to go and its animation toolset is implements in such a way that its a smooth process to rig and animate.

As far as your concern over future versions of Messiah. I wouldn’t be concerned. pMG has released multiply updates this year alone. You hear a lot about how pMG isn’t updating messiah, etc. But this usually happens when the pMG crowd gets quiet. Personally I get excited because a new patch or update is likely around the corner then.

See a list of SOME of the new features and fixes this year:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showpost.php?p=3870811&postcount=3

And there is a lot of hinting about some powerful features coming soon. And the big 3.0 even.

#3

How do you know that?.. do mpG talk about it?

I like to see Weight Maps in Messiah… I used very much in LW.I don´t know how make precise deformations in mpG.

wish feature list for messiah further versions

#4

While i agree that Maya is a more complex program, it does have vastly superior documentation and learning resources. While messiah has a well known and established LACK of documentation and learning resources. So if one is to argue which program is easier to pick up, I would have to lean towards maya since the user is not forced to scour the forums for help and work around outdated documentation.

#5

How true !
I guess the users are made to experiment “hands-on” playing with program to see how it functions. Some vendors feel users (supposedly) well versed in 3D don’t need their hand held and should know what their doing.
The knowledgeable database they possess (pmG) could be put into a “book” form for retail
sale (more revenue) if need be.
Additionally, how many times statements made about new videos forthcoming but still waiting. (same one’s from ages ago)

This is by NO means a bashing of pmG just wish I and others have specific examples and item by item description.

#6

While i agree that Maya is a more complex program, it does have vastly superior documentation and learning resources. While messiah has a well known and established LACK of documentation and learning resources. So if one is to argue which program is easier to pick up, I would have to lean towards maya since the user is not forced to scour the forums for help and work around outdated documentation.

True to an extent. Though the primary lack of documentation and outdated docs is mostly in regards to the rendering aspect of messiah. The animation portion is pretty complete from my pov and is messiah’s primary strength.

#7

How true !
I guess the users are made to experiment “hands-on” playing with program to see how it functions. Some vendors feel users (supposedly) well versed in 3D don’t need their hand held and should know what their doing.
The knowledgeable database they possess (pmG) could be put into a “book” form for retail
sale (more revenue) if need be.
Additionally, how many times statements made about new videos forthcoming but still waiting. (same one’s from ages ago)

This is by NO means a bashing of pmG just wish I and others have specific examples and item by item description.

The big difference is that messiah CAN be learned hands on. Try not using any learning material and stepping into Maya. In fact people generally have to take a class to even begin to understand Maya. At least there are classes though. :slight_smile:

#8

The following are my personal experiences, which may differ wildly from others.

I have been using Messiah for about 6 weeks and now feel comfortable with most of the program. There’s some depth in the renderer that I’ve not touched, and I haven’t really delved into the compose area, but setup and animation and rendering all feel pretty comfortable now.

I have spent a lot longer with Maya (albiet over the past few years in fits and starts) and have only got comfortable with basic interface navigation and how to customise the hotbox.
The thought of doing anything with Maya on my own would fill me with dread. That said, the team at work all use Maya, and it fits into pipeline with the group as a whole covering each specialised task and a ton of custom pipeline integrated into it.

I have come from a lightwave background (which I knew inside out and backwards) which may mean I have a natural tendency toward Messiah. I use Messiah “for fun” which is to say serious projects where I am the pipeline. It is powerfull stuff.

Maya has fantastic capabilities, but to try and get good knowledge of the whole thing is prohibitive for an individual.(or for me in this case!) It works with a team of specialists (except for this one guy I know who seems to be a Maya genious…)

I use Maya as little as I can get away with.
That said, I have colleagues who would have a completely contrary view.

Bear in mind that there are lots of Maya jobs out there and very few Messiah jobs.
I’d like to think that employers want talent 1st and formost though, but I know that isn’t the case.

#9

thats exactly why you find messiah easy. its geared for a LW user. Not because maya is any more complex. Its really not - it just has more functionality that you have to look past. The fundamentals of 3D apply to all programs - dont be afraid of a few extra buttons.

#10

Yeah, I started out on the mac with strata studio and swivel, then 3d studio under dos… 3d studio MAx felt like a step backward, and I used it 'cause that’s what the job required 'till version 3.5
I’d been using lightwave as a personal choice for a few years at that point. That became my professional package for about 7 years. I’ve been looking into Maya and XSI on and off for a long time. Z- brush comes in 'cause it fills a hole in my pipeline.

i never said Maya was bad, it has way more functionality than I think Messiah/ Lightwave will ever have. I switched to Wings 3d for all my character modelling and then to Silo (which is great BTW.)

My point is that for a job on a team there are lots of Maya jobs. For doing stuff on your own I personally love to use packages that feel good to me.

Modelling in Silo makes me smile, as does modelling in wings.
Character setup in messiah makes me smile.
Animating in anything (assuming I have a good rig to work with ) makes me smile.
Lighting and rendering in Lightwave makes me smile.
XSI made me smile, but I’ve heard a lot of horror stiries about using it in anger. From a functional POV. it seems really wel thought out and best of all seems to ship with really good usable presets.

Maya can do ANYTHING YOU WANT. it’s true. The thing is though it doesn’t do much that I want out of the box and requires a lot of customisation and effort to tune it to be a slick machine for my needs.

Workflow is funny like that.

For the money, Messiah/Silo fulfills almost all of my needs. The big holes are cloth and hair (and dynamics, but I don’t use that much) I can get those using Lightwave if the project calls for it.

Add a good compositor and all’s great. At work I love Digital Fusion, but the price is prohibitive… Shake is looking attractive at its price point…

i seem to be wandering all over the shop here. I’m sure that Maya isn’t really all that more complex as long as I ignore all the functionality! then it really is simple :wink:

This is the Messiah forum, I’m on it 'cause It makes me feel good about doing stuff with it. Maya will never make me smile whilst my rational brain tells me it’s much more powerfull and much more widely used and would probably be a better career choice and … and ,… and…

#11

…XSI made me smile, but I’ve heard a lot of horror stiries about using it in anger.

can you elaborate? i am considering xsi so id like to hear bad experiences. right now im focusing on maya…

and i do have silo right now, but im not really using it until the next version comes out, i just want it for displacement painting (modo is my modeler of choice)

#12

Exactly how I see it. Only remove the Wings 3D from that quote;) I started out in the 3D world with 3D Studio on DOS. Didn’t much like it. And oddly enough I went to Truespace next. A big down step. Then I went further down and bought poser and bryce. And waiting about 1-2 days for a render to complete. Then I saved my pennies and bought lightwave. Upgraded that to about 5.6. Next I bought Carrara and later Hexagon. And kind of hung around there until recently. Now I have Silo and am loving it. And Messiah soon.

Messiah/Silo are close to my perfect combination. I’m pretty sure what I’m going to see happen. Everyone who left Messiah and went to “another” package. Will come back and see whats going on when version 3 is released. Then they’ll be like…awwww man that looks good…but hmmm I don’t know if its a good idea to invest in that application again. hmmm. Then they’ll jump on it (because us geeks can’t resist eye-candy) and start complaining about all that is missing again. And the cycle will start over.

hehe. There is ALWAYS something missing. And the more I dig into Messiah the more I want yet the more I can see what CAN be done using Messiah. I’m shocked at how flexible the scripting is (at least on the surface) I’m seeing a lot of possibilities. Not to mention building armatures and the abilities there. I can build my own mini interface rather quickly.

Maya can do pretty much anything, but the primary difference between it and pretty much every package is, as you said, it can’t do everything out of the box. You need to find this script or write that script. Then the different plugins. In messiah if you want to animate and rig its all there. Same goes for shading and rendering. You CAN buy Thomas’s plugins, but you don’t need too. And you can expand it with scripting as well.

Anyway, I’m a new user so don’t take my words with a grain of salt.

#13

If you are serious about rendering in messiah you need TLH pro. Without it you can´t make decent glass, depth passes (messiahs is still broken), AO, separate refraction from reflection and so on.

#14

I’ll take your word on that as decent glass is not something I’ve tried, but can’t you do decent glass the old fashioned way (duplicate the mesh wth flipped normals for “air polygons”)? as I say, I’ve not tried!

What’s AO?

#15

XSI looks great to me. A lot of games companies right now are looking into it. I have lots of friends “looking into it”. I really like the look of it.

The main reason to put it into the pipeline is usually lighting as the integration of mental ray is a lot stronger than Maya, which has lots of things for mental ray “hidden in the depths”

The bad press that i was refering to are stability issues and pipeline integration problems.
The consensus from friends is that it’s a great addition to the pipeline right now, but not quite solid enough to be the primary pipeline. As I hope i’ve made clear, this is second hand knowledge not my own experience. (I’ve dabbled for about a month to evaluate it and was very impressed)

#16

I tried that but got weird artifacts, anyway TLH pro is not that expensive, 99usd. I whole heartly recomend, it add a lot to the render engine.

AO is short ambient occlution, some call it fake GI (global illumination) since it partly mimics the look with shadows in corners and holes. However it gives a totally different look in interiours where GI somtimes brighten up corners (my guess is because of the light bounces) when AO gives nice darkening in corners.

Another must have in TLH pro, is the raytype node. It lets you separate for example the image used for reflection from the one that you use for illumination if you use GI. Or reflection from the one you see trough transparent materials with refraction.

I recomend you to download the manual where Thomas have put some nice examples on uses for the mentioned nodes and the rest you get with TLH pro.

#17

Oh, Ambient occlusion!
I’ve had some success baking that in Xnormal.
In Messiah if your compositing can’t you just do a “background only” diffuse pass to get the same thing? That would be the same as any ambient occlusion plug in with an infinate ray length…

True that in interiors you wouldn’t get the same effect as with Ambient occlusion with a small ray length to just afect a very localised area.

I’m still using Lightwave for render, so have only dabbled in messiah. I’d like to move wholly over (for the displacment and animation of shaders) in which case Tomas’ plugins look like a must have.

Have you tried Aon? Looking at it they’d have been a higher purchase priority for me than TLHpro so it’s interesting that you site those first! Do they have an ambient occlusion shader? can you control the raylength? No wait, I’ll take your advice and read the manual!

#18

Oh, I got both, AoN is “just” :wink: procedurals, great plug too, really cool. I would get TLH pro first, but if you got cash buy both you won´t regret it. I really like the look of Messiah render, and with those two it´s super.

Forgot to say that both are Thomas creations.

#19

dude. you have got to be kidding me???

Did you seriously just claim that messiah can do more out of the box then maya??? have you tried maya lol?

Plugins for cloth in messiah? dont exist.
Liquid? Painteffects? Hair?

Thats a ridiculous claim, if there is one program out there that can do everything out of the box - its maya. And there is nothing wrong with scripting, yes you can do alot with maya with scripting that you normally wouldnt out of the box - thats the whole point.

edit: hehe, it applies to messiah as well.

and to answer the topic of this thread:

of course messiah will be updated…??? I dont see a reason why not, does anyone else?

#20

I think that you missed the point or I’m interpreting the post differently. the whole tone of the thread has been that Maya has much more depth and capability out of the box, just that the most common things are done better in smaller “more limited” packages that feel more focussed for a specific task. Maya does everything, but the downside of that is to get a good workflow on a specific task you have to do a lot of customisation or stick with the default which is a bit clunky

I think that your assesment of Messiah as just a LW plugin is a little unfair?

Edit@@ Aw, you did an edit under me, Now I look like a psycho!