Frustration about Art judgement

#81

I really don’t agree with you David. I dont think all image that have passed the jury are exceptional. Personally I like the image. Yes it is not exceptional bur has a potential and the artist too.

#82

I don’t think you understand. Let’s say we have a comprehensive list of what “might” be the problem with someone’s image–listing everything from composition, camera angle, focal length, perspective, lighting, values, colors, anatomy, figure, expression, body language, brushwork, coherency/hierarchy of edges, line quality, stylistic parameters, inconsistency in execution, lack of artistic presentation, aesthetic issues, texturing problems, modeling problems, and so on.

Now, tell me, how in the hell will the person who’s looking at such a list know which ones match the problem of his submission? Even if we make all of them check boxes we can tick, how would the person know WHERE the problems are in the image? Say we check the box for lighting problem–now, exactly WHAT kind of problem is it? Lack of directional lighting to emphasize the form of the subject? Too contrasty for the subject matter? Incorrect usage of bounced light? Contradicting shadows? Specular highlights are used arbitrarily and does not match the placement of the light sources?

You see what I mean, Richard? It’s not that simple.

And what is it exactly you don’t like about the idea of asking people who got rejected to just post the work in the critique forum to get feedback from the community? At least with that approach, the person will get specific feedback tailored to his work, not a generalized form response or guidelines that’s specific to his piece.

#83

So basically, we just add a link after the current version of the rejection notice that explains how the judging system works, the fact that no system can be perfect, and people shouldn’t take it personally and compare their work to those that are have been accepted in the past, and instead try to focus on learning and growing?

Do all of you think that would prevent more threads complaining about gallery rejections in the future? If you guys really believe by implementing the above suggestion it’ll change everything, then sure, I would like to see something like that too (in fact, I have suggested something similar in the past, but others didn’t agree with me). So, if other forum leaders and administrators also think this is worthy trying, it could be implemented. But such a suggestion was already rejected before–with the reason that “nobody will read it anyway.”

So where does that leave us? Do we just deal with the periodic surfacing of threads like this forever and explain ourselves over and over again? That’s really not a good solution either.

#84

I think the best solution to be consistent is be voted by one person, but since this deals with democracy issues another way to have a certain consistency can be to be all judged by the same pool of people, and I mean all of them, not only the two that came faster.

Another solution should be that the judge should be in a certain way involved in the kind of painting he’s going to judge. It’ll be more interesting for the mods too to take a look at images related to the world of their competence.

#85

We did “one person” and there were complaints. We’re doing a panel of judges now and there are complaints. We have skilled and qualified judges who work in the industry, and there are complaints. If we had 2, 4, 5, 12 or 24 judges there would be complaints. It’s doesn’t matter that two voted first and your image didn’t make it into the gallery. It wouldn’t matter if two voted last and your image didn’t make it into the gallery. It doesn’t matter if you believe that the judges are consistent or fair in their judgement of the image, there would still be complaints.

How about trying something like this … stop your complaining and improve the image or try to submit something else.

You’re putting a lot of energy into the analysis of a generic form response to an image not being accepted into the Gallery. Do you honestly believe that message to be written in response to your image? No, it’s not. It’s a generic catch-all response meant to encourage users to post to the WIP forum for more input from the members of CGTalk. It may be poorly worded (and I think it’s already been mentioned that there is another version) but the message is still pretty clear. Improve the image and resubmit or don’t. Those are your options. Bitching about your image because someone else got into the gallery and you didn’t is just reflective of how well you are open to criticism.

Also … you can continue to get all pissy at what I’ve written or over analyze every sentence trying to prove a point, but I really don’t care. I’ve heard it all before and I usually ignore these after you’ve demonstrated an inability to grasp what has been discussed already. I’m not trying to be confrontational and what I initially wrote was directed more towards others as well as yourself. That you took it so personally, indicates that you’re upset and still taking the non-acceptance personally. That’s not our problem, that’s you.

#86

You’re not open to discussion, you just say generic things while replying to a specific question. But at the end you mange the site so do whatever you think it’s best for it. My life will go on well anyway. Peace. :beer:

#87

Absolutely, I did not just agree with JM-art that the system is not perfect and that his suggestion to add more info for the users would be beneficial to the process. I am completely closed minded and only spouting off random nonsensical terms that make sense only to myself.

The truth ****ing hurts.

#88

Wow “comprehensive list of what “might” be the problem with someone’s image”

How about this instead: “We, the few mods who looked at your work don’t like it enough to show it. If you want your work to be displayed here, try to guess better what we like, change your work and submit again, good luck”
In my opinion, this answer will inform much better what actually it is than the “comprehensive list” and will be much more helpful for preparing the workforce candidates for dealing directly with clients, art directors, marketing departments, project managers, freelancing over the internet, and etc.

Sorry for sounding cynical, but I don’t see a better way to describe the situation.

#89

Actually more often than not that’s how real clients function! :rolleyes:
I think people just have to remember that if they really want to have their work up somewhere, there is no better place than your own website.

#90

How about this instead: “We, the few mods who looked at your work don’t like it enough to show it. If you want your work to be displayed here, try to guess better what we like, change your work and submit again, good luck”

Agree 100% and as i write this there is a dude cramming his face into a lemon squeezer and " a white substance" spewing out on the top row :smiley:

#91

The weird thing is that giving people lots of information can sometimes paradoxically create more confusion.

#92

No worries. :slight_smile:

#93

Point taken. But I never said that suggesting posting the work to the WIP forum was a bad idea. But it still leaves the OP confused about why they are being asked to post (in their eyes) “finished” work in the WIP section. Just more confusion.

But I still don’t see what is so bad about creating a single place to put even a “comprehensive list” of possible reason (cobbled together from the many times it has been explained to disgruntled posters) so that maybe less experienced artists can see some of the myriad possibilities for improving their work, even if they don’t understand every one of them or take all of them to heart. Then a simple explanation that the reviewers don’t have time for detailed critiques of each submission as they are volunteering their (unpaid) time, etc., and politely say that if this selection criteria doesn’t suit them, then they might be better served posting their work elsewhere. Just pretty much the same things that get stated over and over in threads like this one.

#94

Oh, the irony of it all :slight_smile:

#95

He must be new here :wink:

#96

WIP forums have traditionally been designated by art communities such as ours and conceptart as the place to place works that could use some help to improve, even if the artist himself considers it finished. For example, conceptart would simply move your thread to the WIP section from the Finished section if the mods deem your work to be subpar. If your work was not accepted, then it’s a given that the work requires improvement if the artist wants it to eventually be accepted, which then technically makes the work unfinished because it has not reached the state of acceptance. If the artist has no interest in submitting the work again, then sure, it’s finished, according to him.

As for having to explain that judging is subjective and the person needs to be understanding of the process, I think it might pacify some of the indignant folks, but as we have seen in this thread, explaining doesn’t always work–some people will still either feel like there’s been a gross injustice and starts a thread in the General Discussions forum instead of simply posting the work in the WIP Focused Critique section to ask for the community’s opinion/advice. (But to the OP’s credit, the rejection message he got was the incorrect one. I think if he had gotten the correct one, he may have just posted the work in the WIP Focused Critique section instead of here.)

Again, I feel that a comprehensive list is not that helpful because it does not identify the exact problems in any image, and explaining the judging process will not appease those who feel indignant–it merely gives them more behind-the-scenes details to publicly complain about. And by saying that if they don’t like the process they could choose to not submit works here, would be just as offensive to those who have the tendency to always feel like they are victims of some kind of cosmic injustice, and before we know it, there will be words like “tyrant” being thrown around. :shrug:

I can’t help but feel that this whole thread could have been prevented if the correct rejection reply had been used, or at least, the complaining would have taken place in the WIP forums and the artist would have gotten community feedback on his work, instead of another de ja vu situation like we have here.

#97

:thumbsup:

#98

Make a community gallery where CG talk users can vote on which image gets displayed.

I think this could be good because it is the community that is voting so it’s not in the hands of a select few and it will help us see current trends and what people are liking at the moment.

#99

Won’t happen I think. First you have the same issues, how many people should vote? Everyone? Only Award winners? Only the first 10 (oh the irony?)
Also the mods have to ensure a certain quality in the showcase (not talking about OPs pic, which I still like)

So the big problem here is the fact that there is no perfect system and never will be. So both sides can just throw out facts and opinions which lead to more points to discuss (which can be a good thing)
As Lunatique said, this could be probably prevented with the correct message, but there will be new issues with the new one.

I think it’s just impossible to have a perfect system where every piece is treated objective (No ArtRobots here right?)
The only thing that might help is a general gallery without voting system, but that wouldn’t help at all if it comes to the showcase gallery and maybe people would upload too much stuff (technical issue)

Damn, I’m happy I’m not responsible for anything and can just throw ideas out ^^

#100

Not to mention people will try to game the system by registering multiple accounts and also getting their friends and family to vote for them. This ALWAYS happens when such systems are used.

If you don’t think that’ll happen, just think about this for a moment:

It’s absolutely mind-boggling how some people completely miss the point of what it means to be a creative talent while striving for excellence and enjoying creative fulfillment. Instead, we see cases where people are stealing each other’s art and claiming them as their own, lying to employers and clients with fake portfolios padded with stolen work, or try to game voting systems by creating multiple accounts to boost popularity of their own work, and so on. We’ve seen these things happen before at cgtalk over the last ten years or so, and we have tried to create a system that cannot be gamed.

Also, it’s is a fact that many members at cgtalk don’t have the necessary knowledge, experience, skill, or aesthetic sensitivity to be judging the works of other artists in a critical manner. I’m sure you have all seen cases where an image depicting a trite and garish looking scantily clad chick getting all the attention, even though it’s obviously not a very good piece of work artistically or technically. That’s what’s going to happen if we have a public voting system.