Frustration about Art judgement

[PierluigiAbbondanza]

I’m sure that there are a number of rejected pieces that could be deemed better than yours.

Of course it could be! That’s why I started this thread And despite some comments I think this is going to be a useful thread at the end in big part for the high availability of moderators like Lunatique which is open to suggestion in order to create a better place for us to stay.

Your piece is just not there yet. You also have to keep in mind that the gallery standard bar has risen since your last submissions.

Again… please look at the showcase… I see you have strong paintings in your portfolio so I know you should be able to judge.

About that ‘Beauty & Nightmare’ contest you placed in over at CA, didn’t you partner with Mathias Kollros on that diptych? Where does he fit in, credit wise, for the placement, I wonder?—just curious.

I did the beauty part (the one I posted here) and he did the nightmare part. One of the goals was to paint the two parts as if they’ve been made by the same artist and this was a big goal for me because he’s incredibly good!!! I don’t know if this reply to your question though… I hope yes

[boeserWolf]

The question i ask myself is which hobbyist would like to learn his skills here at CGtalk in order to post a finished piece in the 3d/2d Stills gallery in 3 or 4 years when he maybe become good enough to live up the standarts.
This policy has alot pottential to chase ppl to other places …
… why cant we have a forum to post our stuff when we call it finished ( and not someone else ) …
I still would like to see all those rejected pieces.
How about an subforum without judging, where anyone can post his works who dont wanna be judge.
Or maybe split the stills forum in two levels one for those who lived up the judging and one for those who didnt ?

[SciFibrow]

As you see, I didn’t quote your whole post only the part that expresses the attitude of many where the difference should be obvious, but isn’t. A loose painting can be done by someone who is well versed with impressionistic mark making or simply by an inexperienced painter. The difference is pretty clear. Most artists that can wield a loose brush are skilled representational artists as well–the former is an evolution of the latter.

–The look of inexperience is not a style.

I like the part you edited out:
‘I just think the technique (as the love in your post demonstrates :love:) is trendy at the moment and perhaps swaying judgements away from work that is more original but less “flashy”.’
I would comment on it, but you axed it for good reason.

Hey, I edited that out because I thought it might be a bit too dramatic to use your post as an example of how far people’s love of speedpainting goes. Now I get “The look of inexperience is not a style” as well? I’m sorry, but if that isn’t love, I don’t know what is. :love:

I don’t think you or anyone in particular has demonstrated bias (the deleted text didn’t say that) but while you are strong, it’s very easy to see how bias can come about in people without them realising it.

[PierluigiAbbondanza]

I find it odd that people whose work is rejected often bring up the apparent credibility and/or ability of those doing the validation.
I didn’t see your painting on the list myself, as it must have been rejected before I logged in, but you shouldn’t take it as a rejection of yourself as an artist. The painting isn’t bad; the subject matter isn’t my taste but the painting undeniably shows that you have some painting skill, and I think you should be proud of the piece.

Maybe I’ve explained myself in the wrong way.
I meant that since at least three of the moderators would have voted ok to insert that image in the showcase (for what I can understand reading thei messages here), but at the end it was rejecetd, this means that at least two others mods think the opposite. This can bring the standard quality of the showcase gallery unconsistent because of very different judging method.

I don’t want to speak about the weakness of some pieces I can see in the first showcase page but if you take a look you’ll realize that there are some pieces which have a lot of deficiencies and as Quadart said I don’t think my piece it’s the only one who’s suffered for a hast judgment.

I really appreciate you taking time for this discussion and I understand that you all are volunteers which do that for the love of Art. I just fear that because of this limitations (no money involved+lack of time) sometimes something goes wrong in the approval process.
It’s not the death of anyone, of course, but I just wanted to talk about that and maybe at the end you’ll find a solution which will let people be more happy. Of course I know that it’s IMPOSSIBLE to make everyone happy

[PierluigiAbbondanza]

Yes, the system is not perfect, and it’ll never be, because art is subjective. Even if you get a group of the most respected artists in the world together to judge, they will still disagree among themselves, because they have different tastes too, and they have different ideas of what excellence is.

I 100% agree to you. But I’m not complaining because I’ve not being CGAwarded. I’m just saying that looking at the showcase I honestly think my piece is good enough to stay there too whichever mods tastes are. Maybe the problemcould be that some mods are involved deeply into 3D where rendering and polish look is much more important then things like flow, mood, compositon, color variability and so when they see something painted not crisp they think it’s been rushed… I really don’t know because the only mods that have replied so far are not against my piece…

Like I said previously, there IS a tipping point where a piece of work is so good that even those who don’t favor the style or associated techniques will have to grudgingly accept it as a great piece of work. When your work elicits that kind of response from people overall, there would no longer be any question to whether it should be accepted or not. If two of the judges don’t feel your work has reached that tipping point, then it just means you now have the option to do something that will blow them away and win them over. The best revenge is not to destroy your enemies, but to win them over to your side–it’s far more rewarding and meaningful.

I’m not sure about that. For instance I can’t judge modern art. I really can’t. There are a lot of modern pieces which are made in a way I cannot even tell what are the judging parameters to look at to judge them.

At least we now have a small group of judges instead of just one person. When Leigh was the only one, people bitched and moaned, but you know what? That actually was more consistent since it’s just one person. But people hated the idea of one person’s subjectivity, even if she tried to be as objective as possible. Now we have a different system and people will still be unhappy.

It will be this way forever, but the system can become better and less people will be unhappy

Those of you who are unhappy–if we put all of you together into a group and let you take over the entire system, I’ll bet you that you guys will end up facing the same problem–there will be people who will be happy with your decisions and methods.

100% agree

If you guys have ideas for the PERFECT system, then let’s hear it. If you propose an idea, it ought be really amazing and backlash-proof, and actually realistic to implement so the judging process is very quick–remember, we have tons of incoming entries that needs to be judged 24/7, nonstop.

What if the system has a set embargo period of let’s say, two to three days. Then, all images in that three day period will get votes from all the judges who had free time during that period, and then the majority vote will win. That way, it’s not just whoever the first two judges that had time to judge the work (and agreed with each other) has the final say, but a bit more democratic. It’ll help a bit, but it’s still not perfect, since if most of the judges are on vacation, then it’ll be up to just one or two judges during that period.

I think the PERFECT system is impossible to create. But I think that maybe one thing that can help can be that every mod should judge the pieces which are more close to its artistic knowledge. I don’t know if this is possible to make, but again I can appreciate a 3D piece but I will be in difficult by saying which one has a sufficent level and wich one not because I’m not so deeply inside the 3D world. I’ll be able to recognize stellar works and ugly works but the range in between can be difficult and maybe the same is happening to some mods here which are supposed to judge pieces of the style they’re not involved in.

Anyway, I’m being very open with you guys because I believe in transparency of any governing system. But you guys need to realize that ideas are hard to implement because of technical issues, so just because you have a good suggestion doesn’t mean it’ll be realistic to implement.

I can’t thank you enough for that. And I think everybody else here should appreciate your effort.

[Quadart]

Hey, I edited that out because I thought it might be a bit too dramatic to use your post as an example of how far people’s love of speedpainting goes. Now I get “The look of inexperience is not a style” as well? I’m sorry, but if that isn’t love, I don’t know what is. :love:

I don’t think you or anyone in particular has demonstrated bias (the deleted text didn’t say that) but while you are strong, it’s very easy to see how bias can come about in people without them realising it.

I don’t have a great love of digital entertainment art (as much of what’s shown around here is), whether its speedpaints or hyper-real highly detailed and polished finished work. I, as Leigh may also be suggesting, get my mind bending inspiration from going to museums and galleries to see my niche favorite, oil paintings by illustrators as well as representational fine-artists. You are right though, I do have a predilection for well done impressionistic work, most specifically oil painted work (even though the vast majority of my work is the opposite). I wouldn’t call it a bias wedge to making an informed assessment. My opinions on the productive requirements of either loose or tight work is not simply based on my love of one camp or other, but based on multiple decades of experience. Sure, we all are subjective to some degree, including Supreme Court justices, but our job is to step outside of ourselves to make unbiased assessments, as best we can.
–Some subjective opinions are more objective than others.

To me, digital art has such a wide, and distracting, spectrum of interesting styles and techniques to pigeon-hole just one area—to bash someone over the head with.

[Quadart]

I still would like to see all those rejected pieces.
How about an subforum without judging, where anyone can post his works who dont wanna be judge.
Or maybe split the stills forum in two levels one for those who lived up the judging and one for those who didnt ?

The place exists. It’s called the ‘Browse CGPortfolio’:
http://portfolio.cgsociety.org/browse/index.php

Since submitting a piece to the Showcase Gallery is an option while posting the piece to your CGPortfolio, you can see everything there, including all of the rejected work (unmarked as such—of course).

[Artbot]

I tried writing such a list once and it became unmanageable.

You’re right - I guess a 3 to 5 page thread by the offended artist is preferable…:shrug:

[JM-art]

Hi, after reading all the thread, i think that the system is not the problem, neither the rejection of an art work.

As i see it, the problems are :

-All of the things Lunatique and other mods are explaining are not clear for the person submiting his work. People just see the showcase and say “ok, my image is up to the standars i´m seeing here” (a perfect example, and to stay on topic, is PierluigiAbbondanza with this rejected work)…just to recive a mail saying the opposite.
Is almost like you are asking for this kind of things to happen

-If we agree that at some point, even for seasoned pros in the field (but a field in wich there are lots of variation in terms of style, objective of an image, what is a standar and what not, etc), judging art includes a percentage of subjectiveness.
Then
This must be said (or suggested, or present in some way) in the messages of rejection, instead of a message in the lines of “we now what we are talking about, you don´t, go do your homework and comeback later”…(i´m exagerating obviously)
Most of all, that kind of message is not consistent with the fact that one day the same piece is rejected and the other is accepted by the same site (but diferent mods)

All of this is not to complain about anything, in fact i´m not uploading to showcase anything since years because i use the sketchbook thread to show and get feedback.
The site really is an example of how a site should be, is just too big to manage all the nuances of users withot some sporadic issues.
All i´m suggesting, is with the idea of don´t give the excuse to users to post threads of this kind.
If ,in the mail of rejection, were a explicit acknowledged from cgtalk that the judgment of the images is not perfect and it cannot be (wich is true), and a link to a post explaining the posible reasons of why an image might be rejected (even with examples…is more, even with examples of pretty much nice images but that are lacking that 5% or 10% that is needed to meet the standard).
Here is an example of a system of that kind (is for plagiarism, but the idea is similar…give clear information and examples of what is accepted and what no)
http://cghub.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5175
Well that was a long post…to sum it up a little…I think the sistem is fine…the forms and the comunication of who it works is not as clear as it can be.

[zokana]

Nice drama thread! But picture no good… still not good… :rolleyes:

[JM-art]

Zocana do you always are so cooperative and post such usefull and well-intentioned replies as the last one?

[zokana]

Zocana do you always are so cooperative and post such usefull and well-intentioned replies as the last one?

yes

the piece is imo not worth the attention it got in the General Discussion section. A bit unfair by the OP to fish opinions here, instead of posting like everyone else does at the WIP section. I can see a lot of artistic claim, but no inspiration - a bit of Chagall, a pinch of obsolete gothic styling and a bit of vulgarity with blown up lips and tits, and the face expressionless but the chest burning for what reason ever - wishy-washy kitsch you can find under tables at touristic places. But having a huge thread at CGTalk.

[Kirt]

Speaking not on behalf of CGSociety, but as a member of this site who’s been here for a very long time …

I think the problem that most of these discussions have is that the artist will invariably make the comparison of their own work to what has been already accepted into the gallery. Personally, I find this to be a fault of the artist rather than the work. It is easier for them to perceive inferior work already accepted and dismiss the notion that the work can be improved or refined. This perception will often lead to hurt feelings or bruised egos when the artist dwells on this thought for any period of time and begins to see the denied acceptance as a deliberate “rejection” of their creative endeavors.

I don’t like using the term “rejection” when discussing this issue with members because I feel it does not accurately describe the process. The work is not being rejected, the judges make no assumptions of the person who created the work, and there is no implied personal attack on the artist for work that is not accepted into the CGTalk galleries. It’s a very simple process, but it is complicated only by the artists who believe that CGTalk should accept their work because CGTalk accepted their other work, accepted someone else’s work, or accepted something similar.

Here’s what I feel is being lost among many artists who don’t understand the process:[ul][li]An artist completes an image and adds it to their CGPortfolio. It is there for everyone to see and enjoy. The artist can link to this page in their signature, blog, facebook, etc. The artist gets the page views that he/she desires.[]The artist has the option to submit it to the CGTalk gallery for addition views and comments from CGTalk members.[]The work submitted to CGTalk gallery is reviewed by a panel of professional artists and is accepted or not based upon it’s merits (basically, “is it cool?” or “does it show good technique?”).[]The artist receives a generic response (because we don’t have the time or ability to customize responses for each image) that encourages him/her to submit it to the WIP gallery for member critique or suggestions to improve the image.[]The artist now has an option.[list][]Continue to work on the image and resubmit it after making improvements.[]Accept that not all of their work is going to be accepted into all galleries (notice that this includes other online galleries or actual physical location art galleries) and work on another piece.[/ul][/list]
[/li]
An artist who understands that we’re not saying the work is a “reject”, understands that everything can be improved, and is open to criticism of their work won’t get hung up on that last bit. This is just my understanding of reading many many many of these threads.

TL;DR Making comparisons of your work to accepted work in a gallery demonstrates an inability of accepting constructive critique of your own work. Stop being douchey and refine the work or submit something else.*

*Opinion is not that of CGSociety.

[JM-art]

Kirt, all what you are explaining couldn´t be more logic, and really it couldn´t be much of an argue about that.
Wouldn´t make sense to make a sticky of all that (and anything else related to it) and provide a link to it in the rejection (or not acceptance) mails?
Why not make extremely idiot-proof clear the how, who and why the judgment system works?

Yes you can pretend that the users posting here should be mature or lucid enough to understand all this without explaining it. But sometimes isn´t better to go just for a good, simple result?

All the debate about this rejection/acceptance of images is in part posible due to a lack of information wich leads in misunderstandings of all kind.

[leigh]

All the debate about this rejection/acceptance of images is in part posible due to a lack of information wich leads in misunderstandings of all kind.

Without wishing to sound abrasive, I honestly don’t see the point in going to special lengths to accommodate the 1% of people whose work is rejected who have an issue with it. Because the fact is that 99% of those whose work is rejected do not post threads complaining about it nor contact us privately, because the majority have no issue with it.

[JM-art]

My concern was never to try to accommodate anyone. Just trying to figure out a way to avoid (or minimize) the endless poping of this kind of threads…that´s it.

[Kirt]

JM-art - I think that’s a fair suggestion to make and I’m all in favor of making the info more available to the users. It certainly wouldn’t hurt anything to provide the info. Some may read it and others wont. We’d at least cut down on some of these threads.

However, I think what Leigh, myself, and the other FLs are all too aware of, is that it won’t prevent these types of threads from appearing in the future. We have always had a problem with people who don’t take the time to read the FAQs, the sticky threads, and the forum posting rules. We’ve always had a problem with people asking the same questions over and over rather than attempting to search for the answer beforehand.

Sure we can make the info available, but it will change very little.

[PierluigiAbbondanza]

Speaking not
I think the problem that most of these discussions have is that the artist will invariably make the comparison of their own work to what has been already accepted into the gallery. Personally, I find this to be a fault of the artist rather than the work.

Sorry to say that but the message I received was “Your image currently does not meet the general quality level of the Showcase Gallery” so it’s you that are comparing first this works to the other in the gallery and I think everyone, reading this message, would go to the showcase to look at what the standard, is in order to achieve that level before submitting again.

Making comparisons of your work to accepted work in a gallery demonstrates an inability of accepting constructive critique of your own work. Stop being douchey and refine the work or submit something else.

I must admit I felt try motivated by reading the constructive critique message I received:
“Your image currently does not meet the general quality level of the Showcase Gallery. We suggest you keep working on improving your understanding of the critical foundations of visual art (composition, perspective, lighting, values, color, anatomy, figure…etc), and try again in the future when you feel you have significantly surpassed your current level of skill and knowledge.”

[PierluigiAbbondanza]

Most of all, that kind of message is not consistent with the fact that one day the same piece is rejected and the other is accepted by the same site (but diferent mods)

At the end of the road this is the final truth for me.

@Mods: The site is managed by you, and you can do with it whatever you want. If you think it’s ok this way, just go on this way. I’m no one to let you change things. I was confused when I started this thread but thanks to Lunatique and some other members I understood how it works. At least one of the mods (Lunatique) did show a mental approach which consider how to make things better instead of repeating that I’m not able to take criticism and my ego is bleeding… I swear I’m fine, I’m having fun painting, and I’m enjoying my days and my intent was not destructive but constructive. I accept the critics when iI receive them. I didn’t receive any critic form the site, just the “wrong” message (as Lunatique said the message was supposed to be another one). Anyway I’m ok now… and I’m sorry if someone has been offended by the fact that I’ve started this thread, but I think that if t wasn’t of any interest no one would have written in it.

[JM-art]

JM-art - I think that’s a fair suggestion to make and I’m all in favor of making the info more available to the users. It certainly wouldn’t hurt anything to provide the info. Some may read it and others wont. We’d at least cut down on some of these threads.

However, I think what Leigh, myself, and the other FLs are all too aware of, is that it won’t prevent these types of threads from appearing in the future. We have always had a problem with people who don’t take the time to read the FAQs, the sticky threads, and the forum posting rules. We’ve always had a problem with people asking the same questions over and over rather than attempting to search for the answer beforehand.

Sure we can make the info available, but it will change very little.

Thanks a lot for the consideration!!!

Is true people will always complain no matter what you do, mostly in a forum this big. About people not reading the information…if in the mails of rejection (sorry not sure how to call them if not rejection) intestead of giving an answer there, you just put something like
“your image wasn´t selected for the showcase, here (link to the sticky explaining how all works) is a list of posible reasons, and explanation of how the sistem work. Have a nice day.” that pretty much will force people to read it.

Ok i´ll try to avoid keep posting for the rest of the day at least, so i´ll give you break:hmm: