Frustration about Art judgement

#102

@Zykras:
It’s not very useful/efficient to try to achieve a perfect system. As you said it doesn’t exist.
You just need to improve it from time to time so in a stepwise manner. Maybe after quite some time you’ll reach a tangent and consider it ideal.
For now only an improvement “an sich” is enough.

@Lunatique:
Definitely a problem with a voting system. I think you’re right that it will absolutely happen that people vote their own/friends work with ghost-accounts/aliasses.

I quickly haven’t seen an answer to my suggestion to increase the moderator group.
Within that suggestion I also wondered how big that group already is.

Two pages back Leigh suggested that only 1% opens these topics. True as this may be since you can measure this accurately, however it is absolute nonsense to suggest that this 1% is the unhappy share of people here. That’s a wrong conclusion.
Just see how everybody responds to this, in an often petronizing belittleing way to the topic starter. Not very incentive isn’t it?

I can perfectly understand people are getting upset about rejections when they are (justified as they are) comparing their work to the showcase/gallery and see it’s at least as good as.
The automatic reply and suggestion/knowledge that perhaps only 1 moderator decides this completely just results in disbelief and topics like these.

Coming from a scientific background, actually I still am a scientist, I can’t conclude anything else than that the biggest share of this whole issue is lack of a weighted decision to get something into the gallery or not. It’s impossible to draw conclusions based on one single or just very few observations.
The more you observe the more the result converges to the actual value.
In this case, the quality of the art should be measured more times.
Therefore again I suggest to expand the moderators group. That moderator group, say roughly 8 people, should hand an internal voting system. Say, you have 8 moderators, have 6 like it and 2 not like it = gallery. Anything worse is rejected.
With more moderators it’s more likely a “right” decision is made.
In any case the decision is more weighted and far less biased to one of the moderators personal preference and daily mood.

Cheers,
Martin

#103

Hi. i gave the break i promised! (wasn´t easy:))…also i´ll try to make this my last post in this thread to avoid repeat myself and to annoy moderators.

I want to clarify that i´m suggesting to give just the same information and explanations (wich are very logical and common sense stuff, just ignored for the users) that you the mods already give everytime a thread like this pop…in a sticky thread in the showcase forum, before the thread appear.
That way you the moderators can have a thread to link to, instead of replying the same everytime, and making clear how the rules of the game are before the game starts (user submitting image).

I´m sure that making clear all this things (i don´t mean a lot, just before) could make a lot of diference, and avoid a lot of misunderstandings, but nobody is obliged to agree with that point of view.
Thanks to the moderators for listening and evaluate suggestions, for me at least, if you implement them or not is just anecdotal.
cheers:beer:

#104

Why not just say what were all used to hearing for years from demo reel submissions?

“thanks for your submission to the gallery. All slots are full for the month but we look forward to seeing your work next month. Thanks very much”

No reason for hurt feelings (we all know we’re a dramatic bunch) or explanations.

Just a thought.

Edit… Before you start cracking jokes, yes i heard that a LOT when i got out of school and spent many years crafting and honing my art. Fortunately i dont get those letters anymore (yes, they used to send paper rejection letters in the mail back then)

…

#105

How big of a group is enough? I think there are about 7 or so right now. It is a volunteer position so we can’t just add more. It is a responsibility that takes up your precious time everyday and it is a thankless job.

#106

Thanks Lunatique. Now I know it are 7 people. That should be enough, given the fact that all 7 judge every submission to get that weighted decision I’m pleading for.
If all 7 split the loadwork, which I can perfectly understand because of time/effort, then the decision still is too subjective and not weighted.

So what’s the daily amount of submissions which need to be judged? 50? 100? 250?

#107

My opinion about the drawing :slight_smile:

I have seen this lot of times, but I see the base anatomy is wrong… you added a lot of color and effects and that makes your pic “eye catching”, but if you analize in deep and skip the color and effects you will see the mistakes in the structure.

Colors can’t correct the base drawing structure, but they distract the eye.

Look in deep and you will you see, and yes, art is subjective, but the facts are in front of your eyes. Nice pic but improve the structure.

#108

I notice this thread from Newsletter, and it got my attention since I’ve had exactly the same question about my last submission:
https://www.cgsociety.org/cgsarchive/newgallerycrits/g45/416045/416045_1318668848_large.jpg ,
which was rejected, despite the fact some earlier works of mine which I think are worse were instead accepted. Previously, I was also surprised to hear that even this one of Narcius:
http://narcius.cgsociety.org/gallery/1004361/
didn’t make it, and it is also much better than many other in the Gallery, so I wondered if the judging criteria had changed and how.
I also received exactly the same email message as Pierluigi did, and, to those who said that constructive critique must be accepted (which I agree with!), I must anyway say that this kind of standard messages are clearly not helpful to understand why the image didn’t come in, because they don’t really account for the specific flaws the mods found in the submitted picture. The explanation, in this thread, about how mods work and why is much more informative than the standard email sent to people.

At DeviantArt there are also groups who accept or deny pictures on a quality basis. Normally there are 3 judges and majority decides. They’re also doing this job on a volunteer base. The difference is that you can send a comment and kindly ask for feedback when a image is denied, which is very helpful. I can understand that maybe it’s difficult to have something similar here, but in this can be better to just give a link to “how the mods work” as other suggest, instead to send a mail message which is not that helpful.

#109

Pierluigi,

Your work is great, and it´s unreal that it has been rejected (!) .

Please , don´t let this nonsense interfere with your art .

#110

Well maybe I could still understand why your image may not be up to the gallery standarts (it’s not “finished”, it has some blurry parts and some neat parts like the drops) …
But the second image is definately “finished” and very good, so it’s obviously all about personal taste and luck.
The system could maybe use 2 or 3 different replies, so people know at least the general problem (it’s unfinished or anatomy wrong or … I don’t know, boring subject)

#111

Well maybe I could still understand why your image may not be up to the gallery standarts (it’s not “finished”, it has some blurry parts and some neat parts like the drops) …

Huh? The blurry parts and neat parts are supposed to simulate depth of field, and on the bee’s wings motion. The Pic is original and done well, in my opinion. Not sure what you’re talking about, unless I’m missing something? Art is subjective, but I’m afraid this argument is always going to pop up here; even when our requests are met (more than one judge, etc.).

#112

Huh? The blurry parts and neat parts are supposed to simulate depth of field, and on the bee’s wings motion. The Pic is original and done well, in my opinion. Not sure what you’re talking about, unless I’m missing something? Art is subjective, but I’m afraid this argument is always going to pop up here; even when our requests are met (more than one judge, etc.). __________________

+1

@ Zykras: you shouldnt confuse a “rough brush style” with “unfinished”. actually i do like the first picture/link a lot more than the second angel picture… just my taste

#113

Argh my english is not the best, I actually wanted to say that I still “could” understand why it got rejected (if there was a standart like “it has to be rendered to the final stage” or something)
I like the picture, I’m just trying to find out what could be the reason for the rejection.
But it’s always hard to be in my place, people get either upset because they think I choose one side (which I actually try to avoid) or they get upset because they say I can’t choose a side.
In general I prefer either a fully rendered picture or really rough brushwork/sketches, that’s my personal taste. Maybe also due to the fact that my paintings look too rendered to be rough and impressionist and not finished enough to meet my own taste.

#114

That’s alright Zykras; no one’s getting upset at you for having a point of view. :wink: No worries.

#115

Same thing happened to me with one of my pieces ( http://tomsegal.deviantart.com/art/Ascension-264536456 ), I spent months working on it and I’m pretty proud of the result but apparently it wasn’t good enough. No matter, I created it for my own sake and I still think that, while its far from perfect, its good enough for me, and I like it.

#116

I don’t get it. Just move on. If your that invested in it, update it and resubmit it. Just means it will be better than before. that’s a good thing.

#117

It’s misleading to tell people to “improve” the image, because that sounds like they should fiddle around until it looks good. That’s where the talk about brush settings and other nonsense comes from.

The weakness of the original post image is not lack of detail but the basic anatomy.

I think this is constructive advice: Leave the computer, take figure drawing lessons and move on to a new piece.

#118

That would be the mature way of handling this situation.

#119

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressionism

The Académie had an annual, juried art show, the Salon de Paris, and artists whose work was displayed in the show won prizes, garnered commissions, and enhanced their prestige. The standards of the juries represented the values of the Académie, represented by the works of such artists as Jean-Léon Gérôme and Alexandre Cabanel. Some younger artists painted in a lighter and brighter manner than painters of the preceding generation, extending further the realism of Gustave Courbet and the Barbizon school. They were more interested in painting landscape and contemporary life than in recreating scenes from history. Each year, the works they submitted to the Salon jury were rejected in favour of works by artists faithful to the approved style. A group of young realists, Claude Monet, Pierre-Auguste Renoir, Alfred Sisley, and Frédéric Bazille, who had studied under Charles Gleyre, became friends and often painted together. They gathered at the Café Guerbois, where the discussions were often led by Édouard Manet, whom the younger artists greatly admired. They were soon joined by Camille Pissarro, Paul Cézanne, and Armand Guillaumin.[2]

 In 1863, the jury rejected Manet's [i][The Luncheon on the Grass](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Luncheon_on_the_Grass)[/i] [i](Le déjeuner sur l'herbe)[/i]  primarily because it depicted a nude woman with two clothed men at a  picnic. While nudes were routinely accepted by the Salon when featured  in historical and allegorical paintings, the jury condemned Manet for  placing a realistic nude in a contemporary setting.[[3]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressionism#cite_note-2)  The jury's severely worded rejection of Manet's painting appalled his  admirers, and the unusually large number of rejected works that year  perturbed many French artists.

 After seeing the rejected works in 1863, Emperor Napoleon III decreed  that the public be allowed to judge the work themselves, and the [Salon des Refusés](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salon_des_Refus%C3%A9s)  (Salon of the Refused) was organized. While many viewers came only to  laugh, the Salon des Refusés drew attention to the existence of a new  tendency in art and attracted more visitors than the regular Salon.[[4]](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impressionism#cite_note-3)
#120

So, I’d say, the history lesson is: define whom are you creating the artwork for. Once you know the answer the rest should be straight forward - find out what the targeted people like and try to make it. If they don’t like it blame yourself for not achieving your goal. If you think it is not fair when they don’t like your work after you think they liked similar or worse works, again blame yourself because it is obvious you didn’t figure that out quite well because as long as some people continue to like some works but not yours it is up to you to find out what exactly it is they like and make it.
If your audience is undefined and you are creating artworks for yourself, then when some people don’t like your work, again blame yourself because you haven’t put any effort to make something for them.
If you blame people because they don’t put the effort to see your work with your eyes and enjoy it as you do, sorry but you want too much :p.

Just my 2 cents :wink:

#121

So many times we over complicate things, and imho that’s the case in CGS’s Gallery. Work that is rejected should be REEEAAALLLYYY low in quality, like, obviously BAAAAD, so bad it’s beyond a simple comment or a constructive crit, not ready for other people to see, the kind of work that no one would start a thread like this over, AND more so, get so many people arguing over the validity of rejection. As soon as that happens any Mod should see and admit he’s wrong. CGS Gallery use to be a beautiful place back in time, u could hardly see a thread like this, now one pops every month…
So why can’t we just keep it simple!? please!
much love,
M