From Scratch: Rethinking character animation for Lightwave CORE

#1

<Mod hat off>

Ok let’s try something different.

In the past year since the last time I posted this same thread, the landscape of

the computer graphics world has changed drastically.

[color=darkorange]With LW core we have a once in a blue moon opportunity to start FROM SCRATCH with the animation workflow for Lightwave.[/color]
[color=darkorange][/color]
(Since we all can universally agree that the character
animation toolset of Lightwave leaves a lot to be desired.)

Yes we know, it is really bad.

And that a lot LW Character are forced to move to third party solutions
like Softimage, Messiah and Motion builder.

So lets try something.

Tell us what you desire.

Tell us what you think is state of the art in animation tools.

Open up Photoshop, take the template, and show us how the toolsets should behave.
So lets keep it light, and informative

Ill make sure the new core dev team sees this.

And please no Softimage mockups.
We get it
-Roberto

#2

first off, lets get to the GUI, we got to have something appealling to the eye and an ease to work with here, (thus overall, increase productivity, i think).

i suggest the guys at newtek should check out, and strongly consider, (if they havent already), have Matt Gorner on board, to help design or incorparate the GUI, from he’s Lightwave Vx project.

http://www.creactive-design.co.uk/lightwave_vx/

a clean looking modern interface… very attractive… makes you or those outside of lightwave, want to look and work with lightwave.

#3

A pretty GUI does not a good animator make.

What Lightwave needs to be acceptable as a creative animation environment is:

  • unlimited undo on everything
  • fast viewport interaction & playback (not just tumbling)
  • a solid method of keying multiple items at once (character sets / quick select sets in Maya)
  • a reliable way of editing (moving etc) keyframes
  • a robust integrated scripting / expression environment (space switching / dynamic parenting etc)
  • a simple and solid constraint system (space switching / dynamic parenting etc)

Let’s face it, character animation itself is fairly simple as far as the actual tools used - create a pose, key the controllers (if you don’t use autokey), repeat until you have created The Incredibles.

What LW currently lacks is the creative freedom to try different things, undo mistakes and manipulate the rigs with speed and fluidity. Personally I think most of it comes down to a totally ingrained application-wide undo system. The number of great animators I’ve seen come from Maya / XSI / whatever who scream and curse in frustration when they can’t undo something they’ve moved / deleted by mistake is scary. Saving often and redoing work isn’t a method that promotes fast creative animation!

#4

“A pretty GUI does not a good animator make,” you are right, but i never implied that.

A stream-lined GUI, goes along way, further productivity, and not to mention the (psychological) pleasure to work in, if ur hammering away hours.

of course functionality and visual appeal have to go hand in hand, there is no doubt about that, examples, Modo and or Mudbox, are good examples (for what they do and offer), but thats just a personal view.

Im talking about mass appeal here, maya and xsi, offers great animation controls and options, but sometimes u have to jump through several hoops, or seem convoluted, to get the end results… but what if Lightwave offered fewer hoops, more streamlined, to get the same results.

And the wishlist, you just asked for… the same can be also said what you just implied towards me, just because u have all those function, does not make a good animator.

excuse me, if i prefer, a solid foundation first.

#5

Coming from a C4D background I really like being able to wire parameters together through nodes, they call it Xpresso. I find it a lot easier to make expressions and rigs and since everything is supposed to be node based in Core it should fit right in. It surprised me that even though houdini uses nodes everywhere you still had to link parameters through script.

I agree with the selection sets, those come in handy.

I’d also love to see the boundless possibilities of Houdini CHOPS in something a little more approachable for the average user.

#6

i know i’ve written it before, but if i had it my way i’d stick messiah in lightwave itself. no point oven, no plugins… to be specific. i like the modify bones. click a button it’s on, click it again it’s off and everything is in real time. i get tired of joint move and it’s clunkiness. i love the edit sphere. all of the controls are there. x,y,z,p,h,b. no more switching all there, all done.

curve rigging like xsi. where you can constrian(sp) nulls and animate the face, even skin sliding over areas like the rib cage. i know there are some plugins that are kinda like that but it’s a pain to set up and sometimes i don’t get the results i was looking for.

better enveloping. i like messiah, but i do like xsi’s skinning. blending weights, different colors(sorry i just like something that’ll show me what’s being affected). with this new skinning maybe some muscles (not really a need, but more want).

a better way of dealing with f-curves and keys. i’ve seen the whole “copy keys” and some other stuff from the past. how about maybe fewer windows that clutter the screen ( yes gui). i kinda agree with ness. streamlining your interface does help your work as an animator. i used to work in an office and if my desk was messy i really couldn’t work effeciently and worked twice as much looking for crap to do my job. streamlining the gui will do just that clear up my desk so i can animate and not fight with all those windows, especially if you only have one monitor.
and that’s my 2 cents.

#7

i would love, a effient way of blending one normal map to another normal map… like say, wrinkles; secondary facial animation.

i’m thinking in terms for in-game animation, but could be used for tv or film

#8

an autorig and walk plugin like those for Messiah. Even better a complete system like Maestro not only for CA but for other tasks too.

#9

Sorry, my mistake. I thought this thread was asking for suggestions to make Lightwave a better character animation package - not rigging, or anything else.

My comments were based on my experience of watching very good animators hired in and asked to animate in Lightwave. Their productivity was not hindered so much by a cluttered interface, but by the reasons outlined in my post above.

Look, I’m not saying that an uncluttered interface doesn’t help animation (I’m sure it does), but in the scheme of things there are WAY MORE ANNOYING things that handicap Lightwave in its current state (particularly undo, and keyframe manipulation). My concern is that if everyone keeps on about the interface (this happens with every new pending version of Lightwave) with no real understanding of what the real problems for character animation in Lightwave are, then you’ll still have problems that no amount of streamlining or eye-pleasing will help.

And the wishlist, you just asked for… the same can be also said what you just implied towards me, just because u have all those function, does not make a good animator.
That’s right, but without those things, it will make a good animator LEAVE LIGHTWAVE. The reason this thread exists.

excuse me, if i prefer, a solid foundation first.
I would consider an application-wide unlimited undo pretty foundational.

#10

If NT want to know what works go and talk to people who do it every day and implement their suggestions…look at the apps that are most used by those people and fix/add the things that they wish were fixed/added.

The average LW user will likely not get their head around the end product either way. So then you need to do a dumbed down version like DAZ seems to have implemented lately.

As for function here’s my 2cents

1-realtime feedback/playback
2-non destructive animation layers
3-Fcurves display with sync/follow of main 3d character window and proper zoom tool

#11

Take Messiah and everythign it does for character animation and totally mimic it.

#12

A Rigger-made right click menu that can be applied to any item (such as a rig control) and populated with anything relevant to that item.

For example, you could right click on a wrist control and it would have an IK-FK blend slider, A constraint switch and anything else relevant, all in one panel that the user can make.

It could also have a mode where you could have a visual representation ON the item panel of when the item is keyed and when it is under the influence of a constraint and on which frames.
This would be far more obvious and transparent to the animator than having to delve in and figure it out.

#13

ROYG - “I thought this thread was asking for suggestions to make Lightwave a better character animation package - not rigging, or anything else” … WHAT???

  • Is rigging not an essential part of character animation.

“with no real understanding of what the real problems for character animation in Lightwave are”

-Are you talking about yourself…???

Yeah please “watch” away …

“productivity was not hindered so much by a cluttered interface” … again, WHAT ???

  • Not unless you’er an avid user of Lightwave, even so, one would think a more streamlined interface would increase productivity over that of clutterness.

Excuse me, but did you not read the part where i stressed, ‘functionality and visual appeal have to go hand in hand.’

And you know why people keep on talking about the interface… it’s because there havent been any major fundamental changes (minor yes)… if u compare LW 6.5 to LW9.6,

“That’s right, but without those things, it will make a good animator LEAVE LIGHTWAVE. The reason this thread exists”

-yes true that, but that still dont “make a good animator” as was the case in point that you were trying to make, in the last argumenative; the tool is only as good as the animator.

I fail to see, continuing my retorict, with one that lacks logic… thusly so, this tit-tat, with you is terminated.

plz, continue watching.

Unlimited undo - - - I much prefer a History Stack, like that of Modo or Photoshop.

#14

" Magic Button " :twisted:

#15

Wow. Defensive much? I really don’t get why you’re getting so upset. Am I alone in my confusion?

Please don’t make this personal. You might get banned, and I’d hate to see that happen. It is the classic problem with this forum - a person (with experience) will offer some suggestions on what they think (opinion) may benefit Lightwave and someone like you will take it to heart and pick a fight when there wasn’t one to pick!

I have, for 3 years out of my career, sat next to very good animators who came from either Maya, XSI, traditional 2D and stop-frame backgrounds and have seen the major problems that they had with animating in Lightwave. Which spurred my posts. And I stand by the fact, that in my experience, user interface was not a big issue. Once they knew which buttons to push and keys to press, their problems predominantly stemmed from difficulty of viewing their work, and lack of ability to play around with options etc. They still produced great work in the end, but they certainly would have done that with more hair had they not had to battle with Lightwave like they did.

By the way, I never ever said that those things would make a user be a good animator. Re-read my post slowly if you’re having problems understanding this.

Oh, and what Pooby suggested. 100%. Great suggestions.

#16

Guys I like to organize things.
That way we can focus on specific areas.

There will be other threads for other areas of improvement for Lightwave( like rigging).

Lets keep this positive.

-R

#17

I’m sorry if lightwave already has some of these features but I’ve never used it before, and I just signed up for the hardcore plan so until I get my login I’ll add my input here. Also I come from a c4d background so I mostly know what’s lacking in that package.

Double transforms would be nice, or a way to choose rotation order.

An easy way to do quaternion rotations to prevent gimbal lock.

A way to do point level animation and retain some control over the interpolation.

Ghosting in the viewport would be pretty useful.

#18

there is no fight, just merely standing up for my opinion…

mad… ???
no, you’er not worth it…

i read you’er post just fine, i understand it clearly, it was in regards on the line of thought, the tool makes the animator - the interface i mentioned - the list of functions u listed (which is all valid, and needed), to your response, on my first opinion.

wait, why am i still wasting time on you ???

#19

Sorry ness, gotta agree with royg here.

I’ll throw my vote in for realtime feedback.

How about color coding keyframes to distinguish between golden poses, breakdowns, inbetweens, etc…? not sure how handy that’d be.

Being able to manipulate keys on the fly. Shifting them in the timeline, being able to pad inbetween frames between keys, etc…

Some sort of grease pencil in viewport. How about a Flipbook/pencil app within lw?

non linear and layering animation.

-George

#20

Fair enough, thats your prerogative, nothing to be sorry about, … it was a stupid argument to begin with, so it’s time to move on… : )

Ooo, i like that colour coding thingy Grgeon suggested… i think that’ll be great for tweaking.

oh, and that Onion skinning that would be nice too… maybe a colour coded onion skinning system, where u can select certain skins, and hide them…

not really essential, but nice to have i think.

Oh, and that History Stack, that i mentioned, like the one they have in modo, that would be nice to have as well… sort of a advance undo option.