From Scratch: Rethinking character animation for Lightwave CORE

#6

i know i’ve written it before, but if i had it my way i’d stick messiah in lightwave itself. no point oven, no plugins… to be specific. i like the modify bones. click a button it’s on, click it again it’s off and everything is in real time. i get tired of joint move and it’s clunkiness. i love the edit sphere. all of the controls are there. x,y,z,p,h,b. no more switching all there, all done.

curve rigging like xsi. where you can constrian(sp) nulls and animate the face, even skin sliding over areas like the rib cage. i know there are some plugins that are kinda like that but it’s a pain to set up and sometimes i don’t get the results i was looking for.

better enveloping. i like messiah, but i do like xsi’s skinning. blending weights, different colors(sorry i just like something that’ll show me what’s being affected). with this new skinning maybe some muscles (not really a need, but more want).

a better way of dealing with f-curves and keys. i’ve seen the whole “copy keys” and some other stuff from the past. how about maybe fewer windows that clutter the screen ( yes gui). i kinda agree with ness. streamlining your interface does help your work as an animator. i used to work in an office and if my desk was messy i really couldn’t work effeciently and worked twice as much looking for crap to do my job. streamlining the gui will do just that clear up my desk so i can animate and not fight with all those windows, especially if you only have one monitor.
and that’s my 2 cents.

#7

i would love, a effient way of blending one normal map to another normal map… like say, wrinkles; secondary facial animation.

i’m thinking in terms for in-game animation, but could be used for tv or film

#8

an autorig and walk plugin like those for Messiah. Even better a complete system like Maestro not only for CA but for other tasks too.

#9

Sorry, my mistake. I thought this thread was asking for suggestions to make Lightwave a better character animation package - not rigging, or anything else.

My comments were based on my experience of watching very good animators hired in and asked to animate in Lightwave. Their productivity was not hindered so much by a cluttered interface, but by the reasons outlined in my post above.

Look, I’m not saying that an uncluttered interface doesn’t help animation (I’m sure it does), but in the scheme of things there are WAY MORE ANNOYING things that handicap Lightwave in its current state (particularly undo, and keyframe manipulation). My concern is that if everyone keeps on about the interface (this happens with every new pending version of Lightwave) with no real understanding of what the real problems for character animation in Lightwave are, then you’ll still have problems that no amount of streamlining or eye-pleasing will help.

And the wishlist, you just asked for… the same can be also said what you just implied towards me, just because u have all those function, does not make a good animator.
That’s right, but without those things, it will make a good animator LEAVE LIGHTWAVE. The reason this thread exists.

excuse me, if i prefer, a solid foundation first.
I would consider an application-wide unlimited undo pretty foundational.

#10

If NT want to know what works go and talk to people who do it every day and implement their suggestions…look at the apps that are most used by those people and fix/add the things that they wish were fixed/added.

The average LW user will likely not get their head around the end product either way. So then you need to do a dumbed down version like DAZ seems to have implemented lately.

As for function here’s my 2cents

1-realtime feedback/playback
2-non destructive animation layers
3-Fcurves display with sync/follow of main 3d character window and proper zoom tool

#11

Take Messiah and everythign it does for character animation and totally mimic it.

#12

A Rigger-made right click menu that can be applied to any item (such as a rig control) and populated with anything relevant to that item.

For example, you could right click on a wrist control and it would have an IK-FK blend slider, A constraint switch and anything else relevant, all in one panel that the user can make.

It could also have a mode where you could have a visual representation ON the item panel of when the item is keyed and when it is under the influence of a constraint and on which frames.
This would be far more obvious and transparent to the animator than having to delve in and figure it out.

#13

ROYG - “I thought this thread was asking for suggestions to make Lightwave a better character animation package - not rigging, or anything else” … WHAT???

  • Is rigging not an essential part of character animation.

“with no real understanding of what the real problems for character animation in Lightwave are”

-Are you talking about yourself…???

Yeah please “watch” away …

“productivity was not hindered so much by a cluttered interface” … again, WHAT ???

  • Not unless you’er an avid user of Lightwave, even so, one would think a more streamlined interface would increase productivity over that of clutterness.

Excuse me, but did you not read the part where i stressed, ‘functionality and visual appeal have to go hand in hand.’

And you know why people keep on talking about the interface… it’s because there havent been any major fundamental changes (minor yes)… if u compare LW 6.5 to LW9.6,

“That’s right, but without those things, it will make a good animator LEAVE LIGHTWAVE. The reason this thread exists”

-yes true that, but that still dont “make a good animator” as was the case in point that you were trying to make, in the last argumenative; the tool is only as good as the animator.

I fail to see, continuing my retorict, with one that lacks logic… thusly so, this tit-tat, with you is terminated.

plz, continue watching.

Unlimited undo - - - I much prefer a History Stack, like that of Modo or Photoshop.

#14

" Magic Button " :twisted:

#15

Wow. Defensive much? I really don’t get why you’re getting so upset. Am I alone in my confusion?

Please don’t make this personal. You might get banned, and I’d hate to see that happen. It is the classic problem with this forum - a person (with experience) will offer some suggestions on what they think (opinion) may benefit Lightwave and someone like you will take it to heart and pick a fight when there wasn’t one to pick!

I have, for 3 years out of my career, sat next to very good animators who came from either Maya, XSI, traditional 2D and stop-frame backgrounds and have seen the major problems that they had with animating in Lightwave. Which spurred my posts. And I stand by the fact, that in my experience, user interface was not a big issue. Once they knew which buttons to push and keys to press, their problems predominantly stemmed from difficulty of viewing their work, and lack of ability to play around with options etc. They still produced great work in the end, but they certainly would have done that with more hair had they not had to battle with Lightwave like they did.

By the way, I never ever said that those things would make a user be a good animator. Re-read my post slowly if you’re having problems understanding this.

Oh, and what Pooby suggested. 100%. Great suggestions.

#16

Guys I like to organize things.
That way we can focus on specific areas.

There will be other threads for other areas of improvement for Lightwave( like rigging).

Lets keep this positive.

-R

#17

I’m sorry if lightwave already has some of these features but I’ve never used it before, and I just signed up for the hardcore plan so until I get my login I’ll add my input here. Also I come from a c4d background so I mostly know what’s lacking in that package.

Double transforms would be nice, or a way to choose rotation order.

An easy way to do quaternion rotations to prevent gimbal lock.

A way to do point level animation and retain some control over the interpolation.

Ghosting in the viewport would be pretty useful.

#18

there is no fight, just merely standing up for my opinion…

mad… ???
no, you’er not worth it…

i read you’er post just fine, i understand it clearly, it was in regards on the line of thought, the tool makes the animator - the interface i mentioned - the list of functions u listed (which is all valid, and needed), to your response, on my first opinion.

wait, why am i still wasting time on you ???

#19

Sorry ness, gotta agree with royg here.

I’ll throw my vote in for realtime feedback.

How about color coding keyframes to distinguish between golden poses, breakdowns, inbetweens, etc…? not sure how handy that’d be.

Being able to manipulate keys on the fly. Shifting them in the timeline, being able to pad inbetween frames between keys, etc…

Some sort of grease pencil in viewport. How about a Flipbook/pencil app within lw?

non linear and layering animation.

-George

#20

Fair enough, thats your prerogative, nothing to be sorry about, … it was a stupid argument to begin with, so it’s time to move on… : )

Ooo, i like that colour coding thingy Grgeon suggested… i think that’ll be great for tweaking.

oh, and that Onion skinning that would be nice too… maybe a colour coded onion skinning system, where u can select certain skins, and hide them…

not really essential, but nice to have i think.

Oh, and that History Stack, that i mentioned, like the one they have in modo, that would be nice to have as well… sort of a advance undo option.

#21

Ooooh, i really like that idea. Good one Ness.

-George

#22

hahaha, thanks,

you kinda sparked the idea… :lightbulb

now we just need more brain-storming

ive seen somewhere in metal gear solid where they blend one normal map to another, for wrinkles, when doing secondary facial animation… almost like a morph map. I could see this as a great in-game feature… hearing that lw-core would be friendlyier to game dev. with it’s next gen collada, and what not.

#23

A simple to use muscle system, with skin sliding, bulging and stretching. Also it would be really nice if you could place muscles in the same orientation and location as it is in real life, and get the same deformation you would expect. A fat system would be unique too, especially if it moved differently than the muscles. A way to speed up facial rigging and facial blend shape. And possibly if you can make weight painting simple, predicatable and fast. A synoptic wizard for setting up a synoptic easily would be nice as well.

#24

Not sure how Rigging has little to do with Animation, if we don’t get a good setup you can forget about even getting to the animation process. :slight_smile:

Some reasons why LW is currently discouraging to use for CA and what to basically do about it:

I Should not have to rig a model a thousand times for different biped character models that are similar. We need to be able to quickly make the adjustments needed for a rig between models EASY and be able to mirror motion controllers and goals without fail.

Another obstruction I usually come across are the bone axis in hips and shoulders getting too far out of alignment when creating bones. I’m not an expert rigger but too often I have to do a bone twist operation and getting that to work properly with pole vectors can be very frustrating. There should be a simple command in core/python that will allow us to get all the axis to point directly down the bone like I can do in Maya using Mel.

Set driven key is a no brainer too so I don’t have to switch in between selection sets, just too slow for hand rigs and any rig with many bone chains.

Then of course the need for spline IK type solvers for tails and spines.

NT could just copy the Maya system for keyframing including “character sets” in general for all I care. That should be in all packages imo.

#25

epiginosis - simple re-usable riggs, and easily modified… they have that in XSI.
would be nice to have something similar (and stable) for LW-Core. A stable and
speedy tip move (bone) would help alot, for me tip move is abit wonky and slow
in LW 9.6

              IK solver for the spine... hmm, i fine a seperate null control for the base of the 
              spine, and the whole spine runned by the Follower Plugin works really well, 
              (i like the control)... one of the first thing i learned about rigging from the old
               trusty Joe Rig tutorials.

Beefed up Cyclist - i would love this plug-in to get it’s own control panel, like, or somethin like morph mixer panel. You know for skinning (blend) animation, eg, the shoulder area, from a down pose to a an up pose (movement of the arms)… or the back of the knee area, when the legs close… i forgot, if this could be controlled by IK, if not, it would be nice to have an IK check box or an IK blend switch.