flash vs html5. The gauntlet is down...


#1

Apple pretty much stated that they see HTML5 as the future of web. My view is that apple wants to strongarm the market away from flash, which enjoys a HUGE install base and directly competes with apples app store. This is pretty important for us as CG fans since… well… the web is the future of content delivery. So whatever you do, in the end, it will be played on the web in some form or another.

So which one is the best standard? Im definnitelly a flash fan… its alot faster now and with GPU support coming along in the future, i just dont see html standing up to it. especially with these tests:
http://phandroid.com/2010/04/01/spe…ed-test-flash-vs-html5-on-the-nexus-one/
I own an iPhone and severely miss flash, so the decisive news from apple is making me consider a new phone. Also, another thing about flash that is severely under appreciated, is the fact that it looks exactly the same on all platforms. Try that with html and all the browsers out there.

so… which one will it be? id like to get a feel for this amongst people who are kind of important to digital content… wouldnt mind hearing some constructive feedback especially from people who create rich content which combines interactivity and CG (as I do).

p.s. I have heard of the argument that flash is evil because it is used in all kinds of ads being popped up over your screen. Make no mistake, that if HTML5 becomes THE standard - you WILL enjoy the same ads. thats just ad revenue at work. my suggestion is that if you dont like websites that employ these, simply dont visit them.


#2

I personally could care less which one is better, its nothing more than a competition between them (and microsoft, but it seems like Silverlight is about as popular as people who replace o’s with 0’s, am I wr0ng?) and the longer it goes on, the more we benefit from it as end users.

Adobe has started feeling the pressure these last few years and has been making some significant changes to their other software, lets hope flash follows suit.
To be honest, I think the comparison between HTML5 and Flash is unfair.
I prefer shockwave over flash and I would love to see how shockwave stacks up against html5.


#3

I saw this video the other day from the guys over at google. Its quake2 running in html 5.

http://www.worldbuzznow.com/quake-2-running-in-html-5/4075


#4

in all fairness that video is not very fast fps wise, and would probably be faster in flash, with its more direct access to hardware. You should check out the ID software version, which like flash, requires a plugin but MUCH faster and more feature rich.

basically for me, flash is like having a compiled asset, while html5 is like runtime scripting. so flash way will always be superior performance wise.


#5

Google have also completely integrated Flash into Chrome now with their latest developer builds using a totally new plugin integration level, possibly in part as a response to Apple and also to hedge their bets.

The trouble with the Apple statements about HTML5 is that they’ve so far not been supporting it on the iPhone browser either, you go to youtube and you get sent to a special youtube iphone app etc. I get the feeling that when it’s all there most stuff still wont run on the iPad/iPhone from it and they still may be making further excuses because it’s not safe/stable/etc.

Apart from that as far as developers and designers are concerned HTML5 still lacks an equivalent nice editor to Flash. If you’re going to be doing that sort of stuff would you rather be working at it in a text editor or with objects on a time-line, it’s Dreamweaver versus Flash and either way Adobe win.


#6

Bullocks. Apple wouldn’t like the idea of HTML5 either. The reason Apple doesn’t allow Flash on their proprietary devices is, like you said, is because it competes with the App Store that they run. So they have their own version of a proprietary monopoly going and Flash would screw that up. HTML5 would screw that up too…

The people who like the idea of HTML5 in favor of Flash are the actual Apple customers, who currently can’t use FLASH, not Apple themselves.


#7

What bothers me is that Flash development is way more than video.

Flash is a fully fleshed application language that allows an incredible amount of power for a developer.
You can do Games, 3D apps,  [Augmented reality apps](http://www.adobe.com/devnet/flash/articles/augmented_reality.html), hell  you name it it does it.

Flash provides  a sure fire way to develop cross platform apps with ease.
Having escaped the nightmare that is development using standard HTML and java scripting, (Trust me when I say that testing for cross browser compatibility is PURE hell) .

And for those looking for good development practices from adobe I would look into their FLEX development environment.

There is a reason why I don’t code for the web anymore, and I would NEVER go back .

Dont drink the cool aid, the real reason uncle Stevie he does not like flash is the power it has to develop apps WITHOUT the App store.


#8

The Quake II game they got running isn’t exclusively HTML5 either, it’s actually Javascript as well. HTML is still just a mark-up language, with your web-browser doing the compiling based on syntax standards. No variables or functions or anything like that, which is where javascript comes into play. I’m all for Flash competition, but at the same token, I would like browsers to adopt a default flash player as well.


#9

Well here are some notes:
After some research I found out that
“H.264 video codec is not a Standard. It is not being included in the HTML5 specification due to its extremely expensive licensing fees. The patents for the H264 codec are owned by Apple, so its no wonder they are pushing for it to become a standard. The more browsers support it, the more money Apple makes and the more they control video publishing on the internet.”

Click spoilers for more info
[spoiler]On March 14, 2007, WebKit developer Dave Hyatt forwarded an email from Apple’s Senior Patent Counsel, Helene Plotka Workman, which stated that Apple reserved all intellectual property rights relative to WHATWG’s Web Applications 1.0 Working Draft, dated March 24, 2005, Section 10.1, entitled “Graphics: The bitmap canvas” , but left the door open to licensing the patents should the specification be transferred to a standards body with a formal patent policy.

The disclosure means that Apple is required to provide royalty-free licensing for the patent whenever the Canvas element becomes part of a future W3C recommendation created by the HTML working group. [Source]

This patent is used in HTML5 - Which only serves to aid a post made by Daring Fireball on February 26th 2010 which states:
It’s just good business for Apple to control a best-of-breed web rendering engine. If Apple controls its own implementation, then no matter how popular the web gets as a platform, Apple will prosper so long as its implementation is superior. (Needless to say, Apple is quite confident in this regard.) [Source]

[/spoiler]

 [http://blog.nothinggrinder.com/id-rather-be-a-woz](http://blog.nothinggrinder.com/id-rather-be-a-woz)

AND
HTML 5 drops open source video codec

and WTH

Comparison of performance of Flash Player 10.1 and HTML 5 on Mobile Devices


#10

Umm I don’t know if I can trust that. Posted on April 1st by Google defiantly sounds fishy.


#11

You should check out the ID software version, which like flash, requires a plugin but MUCH faster and more feature rich.

are you talking about the thing they launched last year where you can play quake via the web browser.


#12

Despite the immense hype about the iPad, i don’t think Apple will be able to pull developers and users away from Flash. The install base on PCs and other devices (including their own OSX computers) will far outweigh the relatively smaller needs of iPad users. It’s used everywhere - not only on websites, but in all forms of software.

I also consider Apple’s decision to exclude Flash a mistake - had they included Flash on their device and polished it to the standard we expect, there would have been no competition at all - the iPad would have been THE tablet device to get. Now however, their competitors have a very important advantage - one that will cause people to simply exclude the iPad from the list of gadgets that they might buy. I for one really wanted one when the hype was still building up. At the reveal though, when they showed that there would be no Flash support it became a complete no go for me. And i’m not talking about web surfing for leisure either - my school uses Flash as a platform for students to watch recorded lectures online. Ballistic uses Flash for their page previewer. Amongst many other things.


#13

If it takes someone with the clout that Apple has to knock Adobe down a few pegs then so be it. Flash (like most Adobe software) is awful and a resource hog and while HTML5 will not kill it, it sure as heck should hurt it.

The idea that this is somehow Apple’s “Grand Scheme” to keep their system locked-down to make money makes little sense seeing as how there are plenty of free apps on Apple’s store already. Instead I see this as a continuation of the Apple versus Adobe War that has been doing on for years now. Previous skirmishes included Apple coming out with Final Cut Studio to compete with Premiere and Adobe shifting much of their focus to the PC. It’s mostly politics but having some competition for Flash should (hopefully) benefit consumers.


#14
      You still have to use the App Store to distribute content to be used in their device.
   And if you want to make money you have to give them a cut. Somehow this reeks of a protection racket that I would expect to see in an episode of the Sopranos.
   
      With Flash development you don't need a third party to tell you what you can cant publish.

For example as of now, Dell or HP cannot tell me that the Flash game I developed cannot be used on their hardware. But the Apple App store has shown time and time again that they are more than happy to censor whatever content they deem in-appropriate for their devices.

      But since saint Apple does this and somehow this behavior is kosher? Why?

And now they want to determine what sites are I-Pad ready?
WTH?

Apple reveals its list of ‘iPad-ready’ Websites (link)
Best way to surf the web my foot.
Internet on their own terms it seems.
And btw this criticism comes from a Mac Pro user.


#15

And now they want to determine what sites are I-Pad ready?
WTH?

to be honest that didn’t even occur to me. they don’t support flash so i guess everyone who ran out and bought one will get that no flash message when they visit some of their favorite sites.


#16

What I don’t get is where apple got off that it needs to create and enforce closed standards, and why people completely endorse that just because it has a flashy UI and rounded aluminum bezels on it.

As far as I can tell apple needs to be brought down a few pegs, the future livelihood of the tech industry seems to me to rest upon apple NOT getting what they want. Innovation and good aesthetics alone is not enough in the tech industry. You need good philosophy behind it from top to bottom as well. I personally hope the Nexus One and Android destroys the iPhone market, and something like the HP Slate becomes standard for tablet PC’s. Just because something has shiny plastic on it is not reason enough to turn your back on developing open standards. And it’s not so much that I care specifically about the iPad being closed standards, but rather this trend of people giving up fully open standards for something that seems more ‘well-rounded’, or ‘shinier’, and this mood eventually making it’s way to the internet itself. If the internet is to remain fully open, the devices themselves must remain fully open. No company should be able to express any control over any device you own.

I especially don’t like how Apple specifically tries to break the flow and forcibly make other companies bend to their well. If the third reich survived to being a tech company in the modern world, I think it would be most like Apple.


#17

So which one is the best standard? its alot faster now and with GPU support coming along in the future, i just dont see html standing up to it. especially with these tests:
http://phandroid.com/2010/04/01/spe…ed-test-flash-vs-html5-on-the-nexus-one/

so… which one will it be?

if i were adobe i will develop a new and separate free internet browser that automatically updates with flash plugin. with that it wil eliminate the hassle of constantly updating manually the new flash plugin whenever it comes out. one of the main strenght of flash it sure do display just as you created it. and that is something most browsers have trouble standardizing. because, until now what you design in ms explorer will not display exactly the same in firefox, chrome etc & vice versa. and you will have to code html for each of those browsers so that it will display properly.


#18

To be honest it’s more about Microsoft now…

IE still has the biggest market share until MS jump on the HTML5 bandwagon flash will still be strong…

Now if Microsoft decided to get fully behind HTML5 say goodbye flash :slight_smile:


#19

they wont, they will never take side. even with silverlight they never dump flash.


#20

sony did it with their playstation. so does microsoft and nintendo. i also think ms did it with the zune. i think thats one ‘advantage’ of having a proprietary hardware. i myself took that as an advantage (from a customer point of view) so i can safely know what i can and i cant get from the appstore. yes it would be suck from developers point of view but i guess in this case, apple appstore is the most efficient software publishing of all time. people use it because they trust it. cmiiw when they pull out the censors, people will start leaving it and move to another appstore.