EIM - what needs to be fixed?

#1

There are many unique aspects of EIM which make it worth keeping around - I’ve mentioned my share of favorites many times and so have others but I think the guys at EI need to know what completely sucks about it.

Many just gave up using it out of frustration so I think it would be good to know any specifics which might be adressed in the future.

The first release might be just bringing it current with nothing new - I don’t know but having the ‘it sucks’ list couldn’t hurt especially if created to help them get a view from the ones who abandoned it.

My opinion - EIM’s biggest short-coming is it’s insistance on perfect technique, perfect alignment of everything before a function can work. This is a big general statement and hopefully the new ACIS will resolve much of this.

I’ll add more before this list is closed.

#2

I agree with you completely. For me, the biggest frustration in using EIM has always been rounding and other math (I guess) errors which can happen if you don’t model certain things very carefully. Maybe this can be solved by swapping in a newer version of the ACIS kernel, or maybe there could be a preference to allow lower mathematical accuracy. Many times I have spent a day modeling something, only to then spend another day just trying to get one edge to round. And I don’t believe this is user-error, even if technically I cause some of these problems to happen by being careless. I belong to the school of it’s never user-error. I should be able to lose myself in the process of modeling — do anything at any time — and not be penalized for it. Good apps just work.

#3

I’ll just copy/paste some of my earlier comments on EIM:

EIM bad: Rounds and Fillets, very crash prone, error trapping should cancel the action, not the application.

Surface tools - difficult to use, g1, g2, g3 blends hard to make happen.

Derived lines - intersection lines and projected lines were unstable, made further operations difficult or impossible.

Isometric display - very funky, needs a true 3d perspective display a la MoI.

EIM add: Need pop up inferences and construction guide lines (mid, tangent, perpendicular, angles, equal heights, etc. see MoI).

Snapping should have better user feedback, it should “SNAP” so you know you’ve acomplished the move.

More intelligent (intuitive) workflow. MoI uses the same tool for trims, doesn’t need a wire knife for wires and a sheet knife for surfaces-same tool. MoI doesn’t require you set a workplane, where you set your points based on snapping and construction inferences determines where the element goes.

History Tree- features should be adjustable all along the workflow to allow updates as the design idea develops. These updates should propogate out to EIAS.

UberNURBS needs to have SOTA sds modeling tools, including cuts, loop and ring selections, inset, soft selections, etc. High Frequency detailing via the paint workflow would be nice - see Silo and ZBrush.

UV Mapping - texture alignment tools.

Morph Target modeling.

There’s more I’m sure, but if you could meet the ease of use and stability of MoI, it would be a start. UberNURBS needs to approach the Silo - ZBrush level of functionality to attract more users back into the fold.

And for God’s sake don’t leave us hanging. Training, training, and more training. Adobe got big in part by making sure people knew how to use their stuff. Training.

#4

Even though I only use EIM a little from time to time I’d like to chime in based on
plsyvjeucxfw comments…

-I Second. I’d like to see better, more understandable error messages and error responses.
Example: Unigraphics NX2 CAD software gives users multiple ways to investigate or back out of errors during the modeling process when using sketched features.

EIM add: Need pop up inferences and construction guide lines (mid, tangent, perpendicular, angles, equal heights,).

-I second.

Snapping should have better user feedback, it should “SNAP” so you know you’ve acomplished the move.

-I Second.

History Tree- features should be adjustable all along the workflow to allow updates as the design idea develops. These updates should propogate out to EIAS.

-I Second, third and fourth this suggestion.

-I second -but based on twenty years using CAD, the training/trainers need to have a practical, real life, real experience working knowledge of the software and how to use it.

There is basic overview knowledge, but training should be based on someones EIM in the mud, hands and face dirty work experiences. Not so that we avoid getting ourselves dirty, but to get people up to speed faster. There are workflows that will and will not work, EITG needs to know this and be able to communicate good modeling techniques.

Out of curiousity, does anyone think a EIAS/EIM focused weekend seminar would work? Similar to conceptart.orgs focused weekend seminars?

Well, that’s it for now, back to the day job and getting ready to move to a new house…

Cheers,

~Mike

#5

Regarding things such as Rounds and out-of-range input values: one wishes EIM was smart enough to tell us what the maximum radius allowed is for a given rounding circle widget or a numerical field in the Rounding/Chamfering window. Something such as a “round a whole face so that it gets to be a fully curved surface with no planar part at all” option would be fine, too. It would be great to have some of the kind of problem-solving tools that apps such as Concepts Unlimited (that continuity-cap tool is sweet) or Amapi (its Boundary-Representation tool, its post-skin curvature controls) have.

About having things like ViaCAD’s LogiCursor and others’ “smart cursors”, there is the problem of such a feature not being as easily applicable for translations, scalings and such when EIM is Translate/Rotate/Scale widget-based instead of “point of origin plus two-point vector”-based, such as ViaCAD. And I don’t want to lose the widget, as ViaCAD’s method is quite painful when one has to move an object through large distances that require too much zoom out. Does anyone know of any app that successfully combines such things? I could imagine, anyway, some fast way of selecting any “smart cursor”-target (point, midpoint, midplane, etc.) in an object as its T/R/S widget origin.

A few UI enhancements ought to be mandatory, such as mouse support at the Tools and Layers palettes; screensets for, say, being able to anchor Custom Palettes and size windows so that they don’t occlude each other if we don’t want to, etc. Small Icons are nice, but I think we need an intermediate size, as they are a bit too tiny in nowadays’ monitors (I love them for being so screenstate-economical, but they are driving me blind! :smiley: Certain properties and things ought to be an on-Window’s checkbox away instead of buried into a contextual menu or, worse, into the Preferences dialog window: view modes, vector cues visibility, etc. Grid measures and snaps need either a way of quickly being scaled up and down (say, a x10, x100, x0.1, etc slider) or recalling grid presets without having to dig into CMs or window dialogs.

In general, EIM has one of those very elegant but somewhat rigid and frustrating UIs some 3D apps have, in the sense of several parameters that need constant changing being too many UI gestures deep into it. It wouldn’t hurt to have some very inmediate controls here and there to expedite things, even if the app gets to look a bit too busy. For example, it is ridiculous that one has to double-click into a curve primitive tool to invoke a dialog to check a checkbox to determine that it will fill the shapes it produces. Such a detail ought to be a badge in the tool’s icon an Alt-Click away, or a “Property” tool click away (as the “Copy Mode” is). Most tools would benefit from sort of a Quark Xpress or InDesign-style parameter bar.

What worries me is that not even EIAS v7 has mouse support yet.

#6

If EI wants be a motion graphics power it NEEDS illustrator outlines\eps support as one of its options. Not some clumsy way to draw splines.

Scott

#7

Actually Scott, you can import EPS from illustrator…works good but some clean-up is usually needed.

#8

That’s something they should fix. :wink:

#9

I think in my opinion, they need to be more tutorials usefull to the user. I am talking about all the EITG guys just learn from maxon or maya they have tons of libraries for texturing, sorry if i havent purchased electric image but that is what really needs to be fixed, if u r intending to attract new cients you have to put it out there to people how to use EIM and EIAS.
I do not handle how much it costs to put out some tutorials but is not brain science, i have heard in other threads form different applications that they have checked out EITG and they are talking about that it seems like some amature work, i was like what are u talking about people doesnt know the power of EIAS or the modeller, you need a hand on publicity going on tours with other companies something like that, but i just cant trust.
People doesnt know all the things you can achieve with Electirc Image, is hard labor but you have a new year to start over.
I am sure u can get all the people crazy about your products, doesnt matter if it has an integrated modeller or not because now days there are so many modellers but if u guys insist in bringing back modeller that is fine but the problem still gonna be there.
I hope we dont have to depend on big companies like Autodesk is just becoming a monopoly, that is my point of view of the whoe situation.

#10

I agree about the tutorials need. I suppose folks are either lazy or more likely just too busy to afford the time to suss out how every feature works, especially if an app has a bad reputation- why waste time struggling to learn something that won’t work anyway…

I remember years ago Strata 1.5- one guy was modelling top quality characters and faces with it- God knows how… The manual said you could model practically anything with Strata, but it was a struggle going beyond the usual basic stuff, especially on the Mac Quadras available then- that’s why I got into formZ.

I’d say with EIM, to take out of the tool set anything that doesn’t work easily and save wasting users time- either that or provide comprehensive instructions.

#11

There may only be 5-6 tools left then! LOL

Seriously, I’m hoping a new ACIS takes some of the unpredictability out of the tools - ViaCad is quite forgiving. I’m not sure if it’s the newer ACIS it has which gives it that or the implementation of the new ACIS, in their unique way, which makes it so.

I don’t agree on taking tools out…but they should all work in a way which builds creative confidence with users.

#12

Hello Paul, have you thought in making a community focusing in the use of EIM with some video tutorials like 3dKiwi (c4dcafe), i do not know it might help. I do not how much work and time will that take from you but it will be an excellent resource.

#13

Yes, they should all work and not just look good in a glossy brochure or half finished manual.

#14

EITG should also review the posts within the SDS thread on EIM, found here:

http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=186&t=568561

Including -

It’s been mentioned before, but no harm in repeating, any SDS tools inside of EIM should reflect state of the art in Polygon Modeling. There should be a Cut Tool, Knife Tool, Ring and Loop Selections, the ability to ‘walk’ your selection up and down your loops, etc.

It would be handy to ‘draw’ out individual splines, and snap those lines to reference geometry, thus allowing ‘retopologizing’ a la’ Silo.

Inset Scale, Beveling Loops and Edges, Soft Selection or Magnets for moving Vertices, Paint Sculpting (which Amorphium had years ago), Lattice Deforms.

Really just an EI version of Silo’s tools would be fine.

#15

One thing to note is that, even if the ÜberNURBS tools are not quite as carefreely agile as most poly-based SDS modelers’ are, they are so fluid that one wishes one could use them to produce not a SDS object but a normal angular one (sort of a “non-cage” cage).

#16

This thread has been automatically closed as it remained inactive for 12 months. If you wish to continue the discussion, please create a new thread in the appropriate forum.