EIM Survey

#41

It’s been over 10 years for me from using the old EIAS $4.5K system EIAS 1.0-2.5 was around the time the industry shifted. 2.9 and 3.0 have been my tools of choice and I even kept the EIM from DVGarage since it seemed to have less bugs than 3.0 packaged EIM.

I have been on the sidelines waiting. Then comes along a newsletter / survey that sparked a glimpse of hope. EI gang I’ve read the complaints, needs, wants, recommendations. I’ve seen EI grow (not during Play) and after many years battling it is in a possition to continue the growth pattern that it used to have. Now there is better user feedback, more robust upgrades (still behind the times) but they are moving strong towards Nirvana (whatever that may be).

I love EIM. I have tried various 3d apps and like most can attest we go back to EI for a quick turn around project here or there. I have to agree with the veterans that have posted even the newer ones (big respect to Critobal Vila). Revamp the old EIM sub D, keep ACIS (in the past this was addressed as an ASCIS license price hike, is that still factor?) this can better address if we would need it or not for the benefit of EI production line. Industrial deisgners and 2d-still users seem to benefit from those tools. Powerful Sub-D like Silo or Modo (AKA lightwave on steroids) will help us provide more organic characters. Sharp characters then raises the question of C.A. I attempted facial animation not a pretty sight so some form of smoothing meshes when deformed in Animator is a needed enhancement too.

Texturing has always been hell for me. Using 3 or 4 apps to make EIAS sing at render time. Then I have to take clips on to After effects to tweak and enhance. Slick particles a-la particle illusions approach, water, nice default skies the basics that EI is still lacking. Illustrator support was improved in 4.0. Zaxworks does a pretty good job in 3D for A.E. & EI. Build those tools in. I know I’m outdated in EI but friends that have upgraded have all complained about the same upgrades we wanted 5, 6 years ago.

EI is still a strong program but the user base lacks. If EI needs our money or support for growth its a 2 way street. The 5th question had me stomped for a LONG time. Personally GI, PSD export, O2F, and many little LITTLE add ons have never cut the mustard. Every upgrade if you are in the bleeding edge asks from $50 to $450 upgrade. Year over year I debated upgrade or buy a plug-in that will give that umph that OTHER 3d package has. To grow user base EI need tools that appeal to the masses that use tools that the masses currently have.

Sorry folks don’t like to point the obvious here. My intention is to commend EIG latest efforts. This is reminicent of when 3D Studio max went from 3 to 4. They bought plugin manufaturers and implemented them into the workflow. If EIG is in the same path (and agresively from my witness point of view) EI within the next 2 years could be above Lightwave / Maxon. (I know some believe EI is a Maya, XSI, Houdini prodigy look at the tool sets be REALISTIC). I just hope the price tag doesn’t climb as the the others have.

EIM
-need better sub Ds
-support Ai files and nice ways to work with them
-UV mapping a +++
-Vector Painting a ++
-New media (personal greed) sweeter flash export swf, or svg.
-Keep ACIS improve some of the errors.
-Send out a survey for each category of modelers, character, cad, industrial, print, film, hobby. Make it a multiple answer survey to establish EIM tools people use, and what tools from competition people use that can help improve current user base.
-If EI has a general outlook on what its goal is vs what the users want (lately they are working with us) provide links or explanations of tools like Silo does. Provide a roadmap to keep us engaged like I’ve seen on this forum.

I’m ready to upgrade to a new modeler bugs included. (as long as the fix is free)

#42

As a motion graphics artist i willl ike more animation tools like a new particle system,perhaps something similar to Dante ( never had it but you get my point),maybe add to the main application some of the Northern Lights plug ins. That will be a beauty.All of u guys are right you have to defend what most interest you but i will pay for electric image to be an animation system and rendering system not just for architectural or stills is an animation system so lets just make it happened i have modeller when it came out it was nice but there is a lot of other modeller like Zbrush or FormZ and many more but not too many anymation systems dedicated to animate anything possible.Well is just me i do motion graphics and a lot of dreaming graphics too.
Edgard Iriarte

#43

GigaYoda,

I think that was a very well thought out post you wrote.
and I do actually relate to some of the points you brought up.
But its pretty obvious why the mass market is not responding all
that well to the upgrades we’ve had.
The user base has been happy about many things, but overall,
if EI wants to stay in biz, lets get into the biz.
that is supplying software that can be used in any area of the utla tight,
small market we call 3d animation.
Its like we are battling for a small piece of a small piece of pie.
That means we need CA tools and we need them soon.

Don’t worry I think I’m even getting sick me saying this so many times,
so I won’t harp anymore:)

#44

As a motion graphics artist i willl like more animation tools and new particle engine,maybe add to the main application some of the Northern Lights plug ins. That will be a beauty.
All of u guys are right to defend what most interest you but i had electric image upt o 2.9cd , i had modeller and it was very frustrated to make that application work a lot of errors too, i tought my self EIAS and i find very difficult to model anything in Modeller in the last years i have find my self more conftrable modelling in Maya or C4D but a modeller is needed if EI wants to be on the money.It will be fantastic if it could be in the main application but as i have read it is not possible so why dont we bring out modeller and make it more like other modelling software so there will be a les learning curve.
Edgard Iriarte

#45

I have read a lot of comments stating to not “waste resources” on a modeler and focus…

May I point out, EITG is wasting a resource, EIM. You may not use it, you may not like it, but face it, a number of users do. EIM stopped working for me in Leopard 10.5. That makes it a tool I will most likely drop for Modo.

When I switch to Modo, that means my focus is off of EI. No more scripts, no more plug-ins, no more forum support. I have 12 years experience using EI in film, television and recently “industrial design”. I will keep my knowledge, but will not be around to support other users.

So I argue that EIM may not be the most important piece of EITG software, but it is a benefit to the company. And it is a damn nice tool, also.

Render Fast, Retire Young!
Cj

Other notes:
Every other package has a modeler, if not integrated.
Fact is a proprietary format, and is supported by fewer and fewer outside modelers
Transporter is need of an update, bringing other formats into EI is becoming increasingly difficult, this is taking significant time and is offsetting the amazing render speeds. And they are amazing.

#46

CJ… I have a feeling you wont need to worry.

#47

EIM had only one appeal to me. It seem to be the only app which transferred Morph targets in it’s excluse Fact format.
Then I eventually started having problems with that.

    EIM could only have one appeal to me now, a low priority or tertiary means of editiing verts for characters Morphs or weightmap vert editing. 
    
    In light of next gen organic modelers like Zbrush...EIM is antiquated. 
    
    It's SDS poly tools lack many of the Ring selection and editing feature is basic poly modelers. Modeling without higher level edging tools would be excruciatingly slow and unintuitive. Editing one edge or point at time is [u]blank[/u]. 
    
    What about surface snapping for retopology of scans? Did it every have it? The reason I started to use Maya modeler  was "UVs". Did EIM ever help with that? Still no solution. 
    
    Animator still lacks wired over shaded previews, and for a modeler lacking a plethora a view/evaluation modes is sheerly detrimental to the quality of  artwork itself. 
    
    I'm only pointing out things that bothered me about it when it was on the market. I could go on but I would think that it's unfair to compare a modeler that has been defunct for several years... like geometry conversion types (poly,nurbs, SDS).  Was there even an Obj import? Matter of fact, I don't think a poly could be imported and converted to a SDS.  ...relapse.
    
    Hard Body. This area was more inept than the organics.  It mainly was a Boolean modeler which to me was a step back from my earlier days as a full time industrial design manufacturer doing Surface modeling in FormZ. I still only do Surface modeling in other apps...not boolean. And now, a lot of Hard Body is being done with poly/SDS. This makes EIM NURBS less valuble.
    
    Besides, The only person I have ever seen make hind or hair of EIM Nurbs surface modeling tools is Cristabol. Cars, to me,  should be done with NURBS. I just finished a "real" car render from an auto compan y that the interior alone was 750 mb.  I don't see EIM even being able to import it let alone edit it. And Textures, even in Animator is out.  EITG should spend more time and resource in getting it's current flagship app to handle industry level 'real world' problems like importing and rendering fully texture data assets instead discontinued, below standard ...toy. I have never seen one CAD-accurate mechnical plot from EIM.
    
    OK. That's my personal and professional opinion. 
    
    I agree with PaulS. Those who want it..are using it. Like Dave said, I never "got" it at least not the NURBS tools and booleans aren't modeling paradigm I subscribe to. 
    
    All that being said, I feel a low level "intergrated" model is necessary for EI to survive as an animation and rendering package.
  
  Sorry if I sound "exactlng"...I'm nice to living creatures..not dead software.
#48

Let me add this now that I have finish reading the threads.

 The reasons I am doing the Rig DVD's is to leave my life with EI behind with other users "when" I leave the app completely. I'm not going to kill off the life I have with EI because I'm no longer living off of it. The stuff that worked for me, still works and can work for someone else. 
 
 EIM modeler was the first footstep towards decision to leave. I tried to learn CA in NYC while I lived off a years salary. It was a more intense study than I realized, so I packed up a G4 and EIM /EIAS went to my hometown to learn CA. Then EIM discontinued my first CA modeler. They pulled the rug from under my feet. I'm not letting that happen again. I can forgive people, not software. I dropped EIM harder than it dropped me...with an extra push. 
 
 Right now, I'm sitting on an 11 Gb Box when Camera can only address 2 of RAM while Data sets are reaching trillions of polygon levels. We are on 64 bit Machines. Hello. the industry leading tools are 64 bit. Someone want to double check that for me in case I'm wrong? Thanks. Technologies are such that "Huge' files can be render in smaller chunks so that large files can be rendered. Camera loads everthing into memory but can only load small 2 gb chunks of RAM. hmm...my spidey senses are tingling again.  
 
 Nobody is going jeopardize a contracts because of software. I almost left EIAS because of the lack of texture import options. Only because of RamJac am I still here. Also, my work comes from my associate who use EIAS.  Believe me, I have been try to coax them towards other render solutions. 
 
 My biggest advice to EIAS development is ... refine what you have. Also, Keep the customers you have before getting new ones. I think EITG will lose seats while developing  EIM not gain. Develop Animator and the users will get more more and then users.
#49

For Igors who like short reduced instructions set.

  1. Animator needs minor native modeling features to be competitive as an animator.
  2. EITG should only implement EIM in areas where it will enhance Animator.(poly editing).
  3. NURBS and SDS tools sets sold as add-ons.
  4. EIM should be intergrate only to add vertex level operation Animator.
  5. Vertex level controls such as animation verts, UVs, vertex control weight maps, clusters.
  6. SDS should only be implement to assist with rendertime SDS for proxy or Zbrush SDS.
  7. Hidden geometry should speed up EI interface redraw, as well as res’n down geometry.
  8. Vertex grouping for clusters with transforms. Morph sculpting. Multitarget morphs.
  9. Import textures with FBX and Objs. Convert between geometry types. SDS, poly.
  10. Draw Curve types that can be animateable with keys or dynamics.

Again, the focus should not be resurrect the model but strengthen and enhance Animator.

#50

Hey, can we see this 'real car render"?

What program are you using which can handle a 750 meg model and then render it? I think I’m using the wrong software:-)

#51

I would just like to suggest that all the hard surface pros out there take
MOI for a spin. It’s still free to use.

www.moi3d.com

I think you’ll be surprised how easy it is and how robust it is. Not too mention
the developer is more than happy to hear requests and in many cases accomidate or offer
solutions.

And Alonzo, my experience with EIM is the same as yours… it was my first modeling
app that I wanted to use to helpme with CA back when I had no clue that EI was NOT going to develop alongside it’s competition (1998ish?).

#52

Sorry Paul, I even asked the freelance animators to trash my client’s property when they were done. I didn’t work alone on this so I have to protect other’s inhouse workflow.

What I can say is, EI disqualified itself NOT because of exuberant polycounts but because of the lack of texture import option with FBX.

#53

Sadly, there is no Mac version :frowning:

#54

I’ve wanted to give MOI a try for a long time. Every so often I visit its forum to see if a third party has appeared to help port it to OS X. But so far I just admire from afar :slight_smile:
I’m still on PPC Macs and my current budget only extends towards software upgrades. However, I’ll be upgrading to a Mac Pro next year, then I’ll give MOI a spin.

Yes, I’m one of those who love EIM, warts and all;)

#55

1998, I had an office on Park Ave and 42nd overlooking the Grand Central Station, sitting in my cushy chair I open an animation by Keith Lango…“Melvin”. It hit me, that I didn’t know how to model it, rig it, or animate it with a program I was using everyday.

I saw Julian’s rig “Mr Willis” on the EI site. It had icon control just like the DVD featurette of Dinosaurs from Disnay. I was so blown away but was cluesless how to rig a POTATOE!! I didn’t even know how to model PICKLE in EIM with UberNurbs.

I made a career change. I dropped corporate America. New York City, …even Tomoko :frowning:

Grabbed EIM and EIAS found a cubby hole in Buffalo and began to studay Character Animation. Half way up the stream, I lost a paddle…EIM. Felt like I got hit with a paddle. Then I tried to find CA work with EIAS. And there went the other paddle.

Well 6 years later, You know the story. Against all odds, EIAS is still winning awards and landing contracts. but DAYUM…it was no walk in the park.

My point is, I have been bitten by EIM once already. The way I use EIAS now is working…BIG TIME…I don’t want any more “Suprises” from them. They are getting two upgrades this year. But believe me…AIN’T NO HALF STEPPIN’! Not in my camp.

BTW…here’s the spine setup I studied from Julian’s Rig. Icon controls and all. :slight_smile:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=01r6et2bQSc

#56

My own summarizing would be like this: EIAS needs a modeler to become an all-round 3D package. Three approaches to that:

-Revive EIM, even if just up to functioning on Intel Macs status. Wouldn’t it be the easiest and resource-cheapest route? The code is there already (any opinion on how difficult to port it to the Xcode IDE would be? And, about all that “ACIS in or out”, is there an estimation on its impact on redevelopment?)

-Create a new modeler: that looks to me like a long term effort that, even if full of benefits, would take too long to arrive and promote this all-rounder image EIAS needs.

-Collaborate with a few modeler app vendors to produce impecable importing and exporting of textured models between their apps and EIA, and sell bundles or discounted modelers guaranteed to not give a model I/O problem ever.

Plus:

-Beef import/export features. Right now they are dismal.

-Add more discrete modeling plugins to EIA.

The thing is, no option needs to exclude others.

#57

What? You can’t tell me what program was used to import a 750 meg model and then render it?

Sorry, but that doesn’t make too much sense to me:-)

#58

It adds up pretty nicely to me…but what doesn’t make sense is that you don’t know.

You have used the app before…if I recall correctly.

#59

Well, I don’t know - that’s why I’m asking you. This isn’t a trick question:-)

I’ve never used an app which could handle that kind of geometry.

#60

I never really got my head round EIM. For one thing, I didn’t really got the point of having a NURBS modeler tied to a polygon based animation/rendering system.

So instead of attempting to resurrect EIM, why don’t EITG buy Silo and integrate that into EIAS?