EIM Survey

#21

I guess it takes more than strong language to get it to behave :wink:

#22

Love it or hate it, EIAS needs a modeler in order to be complete. Without it, EIAS simply canā€™t compete. Its pretty obvious to me that if EITG was satisfied with EIAS being a supporting application, they would have gone to greater lengths to license Camera and hinged its future only on rendering technology. They did not.

Its easy and tempting to say that there are enough modelers out thereā€¦and enough rendering engines, and enough animation packages and so forth. Why one more? Because this initial SDS/Poly modeler idea is for the existing EIAS user base. Weā€™ve always complained that EITG has had a poor history of customer support, marketing and so forthā€¦well, guess what folksā€¦I think times are changing with Brad at the helm. Heā€™s genuinely trying to give EIAS users what they want. He needs a happy customer base and a complete 3D package in order to build upward from there. There can be no new EIAS-2 until EIAS-1 is back intact and providing a better financial ground for the company to stand on. And for those of you worrying about EIM distracting EITG from EIASā€¦ I wouldnā€™t worry. EIM will most likely have its own budget and its own programmer. v8 for Animator will go forward as expected.

That in mindā€¦Brad needs to take the most cost effective means to solidifying the application as a dependable 3D platform. If EITG comes out with a lower cost SDS/Poly modeler, it will use EIMā€™s existing framework, add some new features, and hopefully improve on the old ones and provide an application that will look and feel like EIM without ASICs. I doubt there will be a fancy face lift, but it will be an application that most EIAS users can jump right back into. If a solid UV editor is included, and some method to integrate EIM with Animator, weā€™ll have what we need to really start competing again. New users will be able to consider EIAS as a total package. (and I fully intend to move this forum out of the ā€œSpecialtyā€ application category and into the mainline 3D section)

All of this is about capital and ways to stabilize EITG from having to live paycheck by paycheck. The SDS/Poly modeler should be able to be created inexpensively and quickly as compared to its ASICā€™s big brother. Could you imagine if for v8 we had the SDS/Poly modeler, a UV editor, and some new animation tools? Sounds pretty nice eh?

#23

These are some of my thoughts about Electric Image Animation System and EIModeler; things to do in a SHORT time period (v8 features?):

  1. It would be nice to reborn Ei Modeler. But not the same old modeler only as UB-port. EIM was a superb application with some important bugs and deficiencies. Reborn, de-bug and improve it. And donā€™t try to remove the genuine NURBS approach converting it in a poly/SDS modeler. This would not be EIM. This would be another thing.

  2. Forgive about include a full modeler tool inside EIAS. I agree that it would be nice Ā—VERY NICEĀ— having this feature WELL done in a short period of time, but I think that EiTechnologyGroup have not enough cash to pay for that. In the other hand Iā€™m afraid that a BAD implementation of this could cause more problems that benefits.

I suspect that the legendary speed of EIAS is doubt for the use of external .FACT geometry. The application read this geometry (similar to Indesign reading external pictures), read external textures saved as .IMG (never use another image file with EIAS if you donā€™t search for problems) and these two file types are responsible for the superb speed, apart from another Camera technologies, of course. I am not sure that bringing an internal model paradigm could maintain this fast behavior.

  1. Concentrate every effort and every dollar in Ā“small-greatĀ” things. Things I would love to see:

Ā— Make a better UV-read support. Not trying to implement a complete UV editor: there are excellent external applications that model and create magnificient UV maps (Modo, Mayaā€¦). I would like to read these models with these UV maps. Multiple UV maps per object support, for example.

Ā— Implement native Catmull-Clark subdivisions. I donā€™t care about CREATE SDS models inside EIAS. I prefer to have a good imported CAGE (created with Modo, Maya, Silo, etc) and then, inside Animator, double-click on this layer (Group Info) and having a SDS tab: enable SDS, 1 subd for animator, 3 subd for Cameraā€¦ and voila!. This is all. Some like Konkeptoine Encage but not as a plugin, better as a layer-info property.

Ā— Improve FBX import and support FBX export.

Ā— Donā€™t try to make a Ā“great-character-animation-tool-to-compete-with-MayaĀ”. I sincerely think that this could be a waste of time, efforts and money.

Ā— Talk with Jens and distribute a new improved O2F tool inside EIAS (as an external tool, but forming part of the bundle)

Ā— The same with Image2Mesh (and maybe Telegraphics EIAS-Photoshop format).

Ā— Maybe try to distribute some enhanced and up-to-date Steamroller

Ā— Now that EITG seems to had bought Konkeptoine tools, I think that it would be nice to incorporate SOME if not all of that shaders and sockets as part of the EIAS.

//mode dreams-off

#24

I have filled in the questionnaire but I have to say that I found it hard as I donĀ’t really know what the various implications are, ie if you remove ASICs what would EIM be like?

Having moved from EIM to Silo/Hexangon I would still love to go back to it - as long as it had one addition. Include translation manipulators (as in Hexagon, silo etc) so that the manipulation of surfaces, lines etc is far easier. Ā‘Move face locallyĀ’ was just a complete pain in theā€¦

In other words if you could combination the SDS fluidity of working with the strengths of EIM eg the ability to drill holes, perform bevels, have N-gons and not have to worry about the underlying mesh, then that would be a great application.

Also I would be so happy to return to the days where I imported a model into EIAS with itĀ’s hierarchy still intact!

Robert

#25

Electric Image needs an integrated modeler.

#26

I was very astonished and happy to read about the survey, because I thought EIM was dead.

I use EIAS and AIM in a particular way. Iā€™m industrial-designer which means that my models need to be exact enough to be produced. I use very few animation tools, but much photorealistic features for presentations.

Since EI dropped EIM I searched for a new modeler. Now I use Solidthinking Modeler XL, which is a really nice piece of software. I read in the thread that some people, have the impression that EIM was buggy and complicated to use. I must say compared to any other production-ready modeler EIM is a dream. It has a very robust toolset, but you have to know, as in any other NURBS-modeler, what youā€™re doing. This means you have to understand the underlaying mathematics, otherwise it will drive you crazy.

On the other hand it might be interesting for you that I payed about 2500$ for SolidThinking Modeler alone. And it doesnā€™t feel like a perfect piece of software, but it can do more things of course.

An SDS-modeler is much more easy to use because you will never run in a dead end way of modeling, but it will fail if you have to deal with models that will be used for production or from packages like CATIA, Solidworks and others, which EIM could handle thanks to it ACIS-kernel.

In my opinion EIM could be an advantage over some 3D-apps if some features like blending on trimmed surfaces are added and the kernel is up to date.

Best regards

Frankg

#27

Certainly EIAS needs a modeler, whatever it results to be, to complete the package and be more sellable.

As many have often said, there are a lot of modelers around, so if EI has to have one Iā€™d rather want it to primarily be EIM-like, a Solid/Surface/SDS one: that is, an environment where surfacing, knifing, booleaning and such produce superclean objects to turn into polys on export. If direct polygon modeling can be integrated into it, too (sort of as AMAPI Pro does), that would be great, too.

(Bradfilms: probably you are aware of the AMAPI 8 tragedy. AMAPI is a NURBS surface modeler with direct poly capabilities, it and Hexagon having been separated at birth, the same original developers. AMAPI 8 was to have a far more Hexagon-like UI: the same manipulators and such, see http://www.amapi.net/ and lots of nice features. Sadly, the programming team was suddenly disbanded a few months ago, and nobody knows if the app will be completed)

I know that ACIS is important for moving files into EIM and EIA, but Iā€™d like to know if it is the best engine for the job or if EITG could replicate and enhance EIMā€™s tools with another one, be it an in-house development or a licensed one.

My dream modeler app would be a no fuss Bezier-based one :). EIM was sort of half-it (I know, I know, Beziers are the devil in a NURBS modeler, but then I hate them even if I learned to be a late EIM lover :D. There is a Beziers-based one around, Shade, but itā€™s a bit too weird for me).

#28

I really think that focusing EIā€™s efforts to bringing modeller back to life would be
an absolute step backwards and big mistake.

There are too many inexpensive but effective modeler apps out there right now.

  1. Silo. that would allow one to easily and effectivly create organic/hard surface model that
    export to directly to fact format.

  2. MOI. This is a great modeller. Its still in beta right now and is going to go v1 at any moment. I would invite any hard surface modeller types to download the beta and use it for a little while. I would (and do)use this modeller over EI modeller.

This I feel really shouldnt need to be said, but it does need to be said.
At this point, EI should jump both feet into getting character tools up to speed. Anything else is delaying what is painfully missing.

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com

#29

Having read all of these opinions - very polarized to be sure - I think given the resources EI has right now, I would settle to just see EIM be re-released. But at a very, very reasonable priceā€¦but donā€™t just leave it there. Some serious refinements in the future would make it world class.

Having EIM really keeps using EI alive for meā€¦just even as a nurbs converter and object organizer for EI, from other nurbs modelers.

And donā€™t just do it for the money to grow the company - obviously thatā€™s needed. Do it because itā€™s a good modeler and can be greatā€¦and the pride which comes with having done the best job one can possibly do.

#30

Paul, while I see what you are saying and I know you must be suffering from no EIM, as you were the master with it, the larger picture is that EI is missing what has become a standard elementsā€¦ the up to date tools to allow users to make Character Animation.
Adding these tools, mixed with the rendering speed will put EI back on the map.
concentrating on Modeller will keep us off the map.

Mike Fitz
www.3dartz.com

#31

Well, a pertinent question would be: just how costly would updating EIM up to Leopard/Vista compatibility be to EITG? Perhaps just getting that could be actually quite affordable, and it would solve some of its product perception problems for now.

#32

I understand your point of view and I donā€™t disagree in some ways. But, EI is never going to be a character app which competes with otherā€™s that do it better. The character tools should be upgraded for guys like you who use them. I personally donā€™t.

EI does certain things wellā€¦hi-poly, hi-resā€¦and hi-quality. The last one hasnā€™t suffered but otherā€™s have caught up and possibly surpassed.

It just needs to strenghten what it does well.

Iā€™m sure if EI did a survey asking who does character work in EI they would find a very small percentage. Is it going to attract a crowd with better character tools. Probably not as they are using something or other already.

Is resurrecting EIM going to attract a crowd? Probably not but I think a number use it already for hi-poly product and hard body stuffā€¦itā€™ll just ensure the longevity of EI. If EIM is done right it will be a useful tool for what the current user-base needs and uses.

Anyway, these are just ramblings which I have stated before. I like EIMā€¦Iā€™ll hobby-horse it for sure.

#33

Is it going to attract a crowd with better character tools. Probably not as they are using something or other already.

Hi paul,

How about the new use who never use EI or Maya before, if EI have any CA tools capable to compete wirh MAYA or any other application, with the lower cost, I donā€™t see why EI shouldnā€™t come with a CA toolsā€¦yes! Iā€™m one of the poor little guy who canā€™t afford MAYA:sad:

I think the small percentage of EI user not into CA because EITG never intended to make it a capable CA application, it depends to the companyā€™s directions which cause the low percentage, not the userā€¦

#34

Mike,

A number of the character tools we ultimately seek require an effective modeling solution that can effectively tie into Animator. The best solution, as we all know, would be an integrated modeler into Animatorā€¦but given the circumstances I really doubt that will happen. Its more expensive and would take longer to execute. The next best thing is a dedicated (and existing) modeler that understands the EIAS pipeline and has no issues communicating with Animator via some kind of bridge. (Currently the Lightwave route). I know that is kind of old schoolā€¦but that will change when the company starts to move towards the next generation of EIAS. If we tried to get a true modeler into Animator, you would probably never see new animation tools for a long time. At least 2 upgrades would be needed to address the modeler integration. (So nearly a year and half) Then add another upgrade to get CA tools in there. Soā€¦two years at least. Plus Paraluminoā€™s plugins can address some animation and modeling needs inside Animator as well.

By taking EIM as a SDS/Poly base, you have an existing platform ready to address a number of issues we face. Animator can continue to be modified with new animation tools, CA enhancements and vertex manipulation capabilities and we can offload issues like a UV editor and true modeling to the SDS/Poly product. At this point, the ā€œElectric Image Animation Systemā€ is complete again. Modeling gives EITG the sense of completeness it needs to level the playing field and compete against programs like LW and C4D. (Who are its real competitorsā€¦not Maya or XSI). Adding modeling also increases the value of the application and EITG can increase the price point of EIAS and thus increase its profit margin.

#35

Paulā€¦

I think you underestimate the desire for new animation and CA tools. Its pretty obvious that you donā€™t use animation tools because its not your area of expertise. Youā€™re a still/illustration/art type of guy. EIAS has been addressing those needs for years because its had to. The fallout from the ILM breakup resulted in the migration away from EIAS as an animation package. To compensate, EI focused on its rendering technologies and it became a boon for folks like yourself and the architecture crowd. However, the result of that fallout off balanced the applicationā€™s capabilities. For years weā€™ve had rendering and Camera enhancements while everything else in the program atrophied. In my opinion its why the application only appeals to select group of people instead of being competitive.

When I harp about CA tools, I also mean new animation tools as well. Weā€™re still running on animation tools that came into conception since v3. Animator needs this kind of upgrade to remain effective.

The point isnā€™t to replace Maya and XSI with EI as the new character standard. The point is to provide the application with a more robust toolset that will appeal to a broader customer base and thus attract new users.

#36

Exactly why we want it to have new animation and character tools.

#37

Ola my friends,

We only use EIM in our TV adv here, all characteres, Propsā€¦
EIM 5.3 beta

:))

Thanksss

Tomas

#38

Ah the infamous EIM 5.3 beta - promised one day dropped from the upgrade the next!

The version that finally allowed you to move objects in the Y axis in the Iso view. Boy did I cry that day when I was told I couldnĀ’t have it!

Robert

#39

[QUOTE=Vizfizz]Mike,

A number of the character tools we ultimately seek require an effective modeling solution that can effectively tie into Animator.
QUOTE]

Whats really not available with an outside modeller?
Any shortcomings in the pipeline can be handled, Iā€™m thinking mostly texturing issues.

It appears that right now, we have, for EI a very unique opportunityā€¦
EI appears to be more open than usual to make some user generated changes.

Weā€™ve had modeller in all itā€™s glory at one point in time and it did nothing to pull a substantial new user base. We keep ignoring that 800lb gorilla on our back, weā€™ll never get off the ground.

If EI starts adding new and exciting character tools, weā€™ll get invited to the big danceā€¦ until then weā€™ve got to go by ourselvesā€¦

#40

What? What? WHAT!!!? :smiley: