EIAS Review

#48

maybe Brian or someone else can enlighten me as to what percentage of 3d packages roughly exist at ILM and other “hi end” houses vs ALL other users in the world market.

My thought is, most companies have a goal they set out there to hit. Is EITG’s ‘goal’
to get as many new seats of EI and Tesla sold as possible to slightly hopefully increase market share and becoming a profitable company?

Or, is it to add hi end ‘hooks’ into the program that make it potentially begin to appeal to the BIG houses in LA? (or is that Tesla’s job. A trojan horse into these facilities, hmmmmm)

I selfishly (being a vis effects and mograph guy) feel the mograph\effects market is a lot more attainable earlier. You dont need to make a lot of excuses for EI to a mograph user. With a few more features and some publicity, EI is, and will be an even MORE attractive alternative to cinema in THAT playing field. Huge market of users. Throw in the large number of people that use Zaxwerks for 3d because of its simplicity, and market\explain\BUNDLE pro modeler with EI – and explain how they can continue to make their models in Invigerator than export them to EI and get a true hi end
looking scene without a large learning curve. People don’t like to ‘throw away’ skills learned. I learned EI from Zax, now years later he creates Invigerator and other 3d ‘lite’ tools because there IS a huge market for it.

I see it now… EI evolves into the killer entry level/bridge mogragh alternative to cinema featuring more Hooks into AE, Ease of Use, Speed, render quality AND price.
Maybe changes its name a little to reflect this EIMG maybe. (MG - motion graphics)
maybe V8 probably V9

While this is happening, Tesla grabs people for its hi end from the ground up architecture.
and stability. V2 and V3 of tesla add and improve on rendering capabilities and then BOOM! Animation capabilities enter the fray and all the coding - scripting - and accesabilities Brian and others want for the Big Houses will have matured after 3 versions
into a stable rock solid modeling and animation package commanding a higher pricepoint
and giving a whole new generation of young 3d centric animators a REAL alternative to the Mayas of the world… or just another cool tool to own…

A guy can dream a little can’t he? (i’d own both : )

#49

I’d really like to see some resources to appeal to the Motion Graphics guys, some reference material, demo or tutorial to show around: explaining diferent means of producing and importing models, Animator’s ways, a few very relevant plugins, multilayering output, After Effects and MoCon, some speed tests (actually, lots of speed tests to wow the crowd), etc. Wouldn’t be nice to have some longish videoclip explaining all that at EITG’s site for us to spread the link around?

Advancing EIAS for Motion Graphics means marrying EIAS to AE, Photoshop and such, so it would be really nice for EIAS 8 to adopt a few simple very practical AE ideas such as Easy In/Out and other keyframe-related contextual menu commands, inline group renaming, etc. Having AE supporting the Image format natively since so long ago is a big psychological win here.

EIAS’ weakish spots there (no showstoppers but rather irritating) are model importing (you need either a modeler that produces good FACTs such as EIM, ViaCAD, Invigorator. Form•Z?, or a third party plugin such as Obj2Fact); no out-of-the-box fully featured particle system; and I’d say having no Illustrator-to-Shape plugin to feed Mrs. Bevel and others profiles to extrude, revolve and things.

(Question: what does C4D output when producing multilayer footage for comping in AE? Numbered PSDs or a Quicktime movie for each layer? It is just that I did my first Layer Shader-heavy project and found After Effects to really suffer when dealing with numbered Photoshop files. Next time I’ll convert each layer into a movie. Ideally one would have a Shader Layer able to compile Image or Quicktime movies per layers instead of PSDs, too)

#50

Well in the very early days of c4d, prior to XL5 there were plenty of demos about, given away free with magazines. You could use the demo indefinitely without it crashing every few minutes. (I remember EI demos crashing continuously) At that time the render seemed very, very fast for a raytracer- that’s why I bought into c4d. Obviously at the time, and in my opinion, neither EI or formZ were doing what I required.

Martin K

#51

Maxon was very smart in the ealy years - got a crash proof demo out to everyone. Had a render with modeler in one interface and a very fast raytracer…and available for the mac. Built a large and very vocally enthusiastic user-base.

I purchased my copy too, way back, and quickly learned that the speed didn’t make up for the lack of quality and much of the program was/felt half done but it was stable and if one wasn’t too demanding it was perfect.

I just contacted Maxon US last week to see what it would cost to upgrade from V7.3 and what the future might be in a few months with the Advanced Render module…Siggraph was always a time for a new release. Not too excited to spend $1000 to get Vray4C4D when I probably wouldn’t use C4D too much. I use V7 a couple of times a month for the occassional thing and thought maybe I should get current again.

Well, I was informed that too bad…V7 does not qualify for an upgrade path??? And the sales person I talked to really had no clue about anything in development. He told me that once development is finished he will be informed/briefed on what the new version can do. That kind of shocked the hell out of me! What, there is no passion or burning interest in what new tools were in development?? While I’ll probably update somewhere in the future, my conversation sure left a bad taste. It sounded like I was speaking to some sales rep at the “Future Shop” or “Walmart” and really had no interest or interest what it was he was selling. I guess Maxon has gotten big, fat and definitely now a ‘corporation’.

#52

juanxer,

I tried with Paralumino’s plugin lineup to exceed and replace the Invigorator workflow and nearly succeeded. However, the Igors refused to tackle the illustrator issue. I wish I could get them to do that because sales of our products would have probably doubled. If you were to utilize all of our products together, you’d have the closest thing to MoGraph on the EI side. The additional animation channels really make our geometry products unique.

Meanwhile…write the Igors. Express your desire to see the Paralumino lineup expanded more.

#53

after using EI for 5 years now and making a living with it for over 2 years, i have to say that having tesla morph into an EI-on-crack would be a sight to behold. my only apprehension is that tesla won’t have the easy to use interface that silo has.

if i’m lucky, tesla will be like silo, but with nurbs capabilities.

i also second Scott’s request for the ability to use EPS files as extrusion sources. and what would really save me hours of time is if the text model generator in EI would make quads instead of long skinny triangles so i don’t have to retopologize them in silo.

imagine having to re-topo “american society of plastic surgeons”, there are 16 discreet letters in that name…

without this getting too much more off topic. here’s my 2 cents on EITG’s strategy for the future.

bring out tesla to show off camera, have EIAS move towards a motion graphics position, add in a particle system that is predictable…(dante is useless to me if i can’t predictably render over a network, maybe someone who has mastered that wild horse would care to post a demo on how they did it…) between that and rodeo, that’s a pretty rounded capability set. then work in all the animation capabilities of EIAS and add robust CA tools to tesla but have it be a high-end version (maybe call it Faraday or something). and sell that at a higher price point that EIAS user’s can upgrade to if they need it. normalize functions like network rendering and interfaces through out all 3 for seamless(kinda) transitions and learning curves and project files(where possible) as users grow into each new app from the other…

and stop the global warming thing too…

okay, now i’ve gone too far…

#54

“i also second Scott’s request for the ability to use EPS files as extrusion sources. and what would really save me hours of time is if the text model generator in EI would make quads instead of long skinny triangles so i don’t have to retopologize them in silo.”

How far does Silo go in retopologizing long skinny tris? Do you have to manually edit each and every or is there some sort of global ‘auto’ command. Tell me there is an auto command…I need that so bad.

#55

Paul…trust me I know. Illustrator import was the biggest battle I fought with the Igors on Trestle. I lost. They state Illustrator import needs to be done by the host. I suppose with Tesla that might happen, but even if it occurs inside Tesla you’re still dealing with a static source once it comes inside Animator. I think that was their excuse for saying they didn’t want to deal with it or that it was outside their current experience and didn’t want to learn it. If Trestle had illustrator import compatibility, the other geometry modules (Scrim, Swage and Bebel) would become considerably more valuable.

If we want Illustrator import in Animator (ala invigorator) the best method in doing so is convincing the Igors to make it happen within Trestle.

#56

Silo has no "auto command for this, but… Blender has a command to convert tries into quads.

Regards
Stefan

#57

Quote Vizfizz
I tried with Paralumino’s plugin lineup to exceed and replace the Invigorator workflow and nearly succeeded. However, the Igors refused to tackle the illustrator issue. I wish I could get them to do that because sales of our products would have probably doubled. If you were to utilize all of our products together, you’d have the closest thing to MoGraph on the EI side. The additional animation channels really make our geometry products unique.

There is a lot of companies wanting to get another solution for motiongraphics,i know is not the big shots companies but there is a lot of business in these area. Specially in Spain where CG film making is done every now and than.I will like to see EI running the mograph business once for all.

#58

yep, that’s right, you have to manually edit each one…

time to get an internet petition for the igors going…

we want EPS!
we want EPS!
:slight_smile:

#59

Last time i checked (pre v2) Silo’s topology tool was really meant for chraracter design and organic forms in general, wouldn’t be much use here.

#60

I was hoping I had missed something in my search for the perfect type/design tool.

I usually use EIM/Rhino to Max via nPower Power Solids - PSolids has the ability to retopologize nurbs into quads - so when-ever I have some heavy design forms which are beyond being filleted I run them through that and then do a SubD on the quads. Most of the time this works…looks great too.

I personally think there is a huge design and motion design market untapped by anyone…especially design. THIS IS WHERE TESLA COULD HAVE COMPLETE DOMINANCE!!!

I do lots of work with designers who don’t want to use Photoshop anymore to churn out tacky looking 3D type and logos. They want the next step or steps up from there. No-one has the toolset EI now has to market to this huge market. I still can’t believe no-one had attracted this crowd.

Most of these guys know Illustrator so EPS and .ai is absolutely manditory. MANDITORY!

Look at EIM…total breeze to use for design (if some of the quirks are handled)…with the knives and booleans. No-one has these tools and they are so what designers are looking for.

If EI actually concentrated on the graphics crowd…still images and mograph they would have very little competition.

This means Illustrator import, absolute first rate bezier toolset, ability to extrude and draw bevels with .ai or eps files with second to none control. Filletting toolset on par with Concepts Unlimited (forgiving) and bullet-proof booleans.

EI is so close to the perfect toolset for this market. Yes, it’s not as sexy as character work but put out a total breeze to use toolset with Camera quality rendering at a killer price with a second or third level upgrade path. There are 10’s of thousands of designers who would buy and use a simple, yet total pro application for their work.

There is money to be made here and a whole market untouched. I think Maxon tried to do it but their toolset is so lacking (except of the curve editing) - sorry any C4D lovers but that’s just my opinion.

I’m still in a little disbelief that no-one actually has an invig quality+ toolset built into their 3D app.

Anyway, I’d buy it and make a bundle, painlessly working on less-than-sexy meat and potatoes design work.

#61

I’m repeating this for effect!:slight_smile:

…with the knives and booleans. No-one has these tools (together in the same interface) and they are so what designers are looking for.

#62

when i say ‘re-topo’ i mean in the generic sense. literally taking the fact models, deleting everything but the wire and re-polying that, then extruding it.

this is the definition of tedium…

i literally could train a monkey to do this step in the process…
(no disrespect intended to any monkey’s reading this…)

#63

Hi Paul, yes, the days are gone when the people responsible for progressing C4D were the same people selling it.
There seems to be a slight air of complacency as everything c4d has gone up in price by 10%.
I don’t really know anything about what’s in the c4d pipeline, but it may be enhancements to AR and probably more to CA- I doubt anything else will change unless there’s a few more tweaks to the modelling features which lag way behind Modo.

Where and what are you working from presently- what’s your ‘base’, you seem to be using quite a few programs. What’s the Rhino/Brazil combination like? Is Tesla necessary for Rhino users?

Martin K

#64

Yes, I agree with this. With Animator, there’s too much obsession with CA- get all the other basic things right first like good pre vis of materials and a working texture placement facility. It might then become a program you could actually use…
Re c4d, it may be a bit rough around the edges, import mesh poorly, but it enables you to actually get a job done quickly and produce a result.
It seems to me that some don’t see the importance of moving EI to having the very basic requirements necessary to get a project started by introducing fundamental features which are able to compete with what’s on offer else where.
Obviously the modeller is a first step, but as you said it needs to appeal to those who live with Illustrator. I probably use Illustrator more than any other application if you count out Photoshop. I use Illustrator for all desktop publishing and would use it for import into c4d, if c4d didn’t have such good bezier tools.
I don’t get on atall with bezier tools in EIM- they need sorting.

Martin K

#65

Wow, Paul and Juanxer, you are right on. Years ago EI had 2 zax plugins WITHIN EI.
EPS Invigerator and Vector Lathe. Also animateable IN EI. I used those to death, they were awesome. What makes invigerator stand apart from other attempts at Bevel generators or what have you, is the many settings a DESIGNER would use with text. You can easily choke a shape, have different bevels for inner and outer vectors not to mention
independently adjust the inner outer percentage of bevel, a 100 bevel on the letter A might look just right but the center of the A would ‘plug’ up with that setting, just adjust the center
to 50 and the readability of the A works.

I hope to talk with Zax in the next week about something else, but I have to ask him about
EI and his products. Make a 3d plug in for EI please : )

#66

Scott, your work rocks. But regardless of how C4D handles sucks at beveling or their nurbs system is too old. I love their mograph module and the capbilities of their sweep nurbs,thier thinking particles are not so easy of use but used with mograph it can be a good weapon for mographers, i am sorry but i have to say their aniamtion system in my work slap ANimator in the face. But when it comes to rendering time i missed EI.

#67

C4D is a good example of many things done right - stability, marketing and like you said, sufficient tools to get the job done. They used to be a hungry company - I guess feeling one has made it can change operating basis.

I don’t have a real base these days.

I use EIM/EI, Modo and Rhino/Brazil and each program/combo has something to offer and has definite strenghts.

Most of the work I do is hard-edge, reflective/refractive graphics so tend to gravitate to the tools needed to do that sort of thing quickly.

EIM/EI is great - at times I’ll hesitate to do a job there feeling some of the newer tools can get me finished faster and looking better but there will be just a certain thing I am looking for and EI is the only render which will give it to me. I love EIM for a lot of stuff and keep my use of some of the esoteric tools to a bare minimum. Some just didn’t work right or are not forgiving at all. EI’s procedural shaders are second to none in the apps I’ve used. Amazingly organic, rich in detail - I’ve been spending some time with some of the new toolset in V7 - it’s very well put together and does what it’s supposed to do.

Modo is a work in progress. I don’t use SubDs very often so Modo doesn’t get used as much as I thought I might. Some stuff has to be a SDS approach so that’s where I’ll go. I love thae fact that it’s IPR is so fast and accurate. It’s hard to go back to doing test renders after being spoiled but it’s material system doesn’t feel completely comfortable to me. I’ve used the .3dm import and export pluggin and it talks with Rhino quite well. It isn’t very friendly for graphic designers - it’s curve generation and eps stuff completely sucks:-) but for SDS it’s amazing. It’s rendering engine is missing a few things which keep me from using it more. Only one reflection map per scene - huge over-sight for my type of work. It’s also lacking the clarity in reflections and refractions - a bit smudged though not bad. Procedurals are very, very basic. I love it’s gradients and area shadow and GI speed. …woah! But, at times when you need to turn things up for quality the speed diminishes quickly.

Brazil/Rhino - my new sweetheart…sort of. There is some very nice stuff in both apps but also some holes too. Brazil is in beta and I can feel it is taking it’s tole on me. There seems to be a memory leak somewhere and eventually find myself at the desktop. Good rendering features but can be slow for some of the 2nd generation stuff. But at least it has it. Rhino is a killer app…but, it still doesn’t handle some of the basic ‘solids’ things as well as EIM or Viacad. Fillets and Booleans are fair-good but not great. What is great is working in a modeler which gives me 85%-90% of what I need which now has a render which gives me 85-90% too. Some stuff is very fast in Brazil but it is lacking a lot in Rhino…mostly procedurals (Max had some half decent ones) and it’s inability to go higher-res than about 8X10 on medium scenes without crashing. Obviously beta and maybe different by the time of release. It’s a good combo but I have a feeling it’s eventual user-base might be very small so the future may not be a bright as I would like to see. No animation and it’s procedurals pretty lame in comparison to EI, it’s texture mapping is very basic and makes EI look very polished in comparison…it can read just about any format which makes everything flow smoothly.

A number of jobs I’ve rendered in all three apps to see which one I like best - it’s been mostly EI and Brazil - Modo doesn’t quite hold up to these for the type of work I do…but that IPR is wonderful.

I do like having a render in a modeler so if Tesla can get things together well it might be a great tool to use. I’m hoping Kishore gets it right. It might take a few versions but all of the raw materials are there to work with.