e-mail from Martin Hash

#41

Is there a method more sublime than ‘hire a bunch of debuggers and testers?’

Most game dev’s do a free public beta release.

JASC software does this for PaintShop Pro as well.

In the other “10.5e crashes” thread I mention running UnrealEd for hours without crashing (while simultaneously running MayaPLE, Windows Media player, PaintShop Pro, & IE). In case there’s any of you not familiar with UnrealEd…it is a level design and resource management tool that ships FREE with a $50 game (right along with a free custom version of MayaPLE). If UnrealED crashes, you get a bug submittal screen that alows you to enter the exact procedure you were attempting when the crash occured and sends it off to Epic with a single button click.

If Epic can do this for an app that they bundle with their $50 game for free, why can’t Hash do this for A:M?

If the overlapping windows are causing A:M’s instability, perhaps Hash should get rid of them. Use panes like everyone else.

While it is true that overlapping windows CAN cause problems in A:M, I learned long ago to keep multiple windows open in A:M only when absolutely necessary. So, multiple overlapping windows is not the sole cause of instability in A:M, at least not in my case.

#42

Originally posted by Ran13
[B]

While it is true that overlapping windows CAN cause problems in A:M, I learned long ago to keep multiple windows open in A:M only when absolutely necessary. So, multiple overlapping windows is not the sole cause of instability in A:M, at least not in my case. [/B]

Perhaps it’s the whole overlapping window “framework” that causes the instability. In other words, maybe you don’t have to have windows actually overlapping in order to experience these crashes. Just a thought.

#43

I can honestly say that I almost never crash in A:M. I don’t know why, but I do know that I never overlap windows. I always use workbook. So maybe it is this overlapping of layers thing?

#44

I too have few crashes with am )v10h, and I’m running it on 5-6 different computers, and as many artists.

Maybe it is more fragile, but I guess I don’t hear much more than “it crashes” on this list.

Let me see what you’re doing. I’m pretty sure with the brains here we can solve most anything, and not just say “oh, it’s a piece of crap program”. I don’t care what software you use, you WILL RUN INTO ISSUES that need to be addressed, let’s try to fix them here.

You bought it, use it. This forum is for users of the program to share and help, and not to bitch incessently. okay to bitch a little bit as well :applause:

  • pjc
#45

Originally posted by Wegg
[B]Lyle (owner/programmer at pmG) posts to the Messiah list all the time. And people have openly slammed them left and right.

Michel Besner (Motion Builder) even posts there defending his product when we write comments about it. Some of them pretty heated and nasty!

:shrug: [/B]

Yep, tis true. Ive been on the PMG list for a looooong time. Lyle and the guys at PMG have taken some heat in the past. Some deserved some not but did they boot the people complaining off the list. NO they listened. Cant say the same for Hash. Did they blame Nvidia orATI? Nope but they did run into problems with various cards and drivers and would let you know which ones have known problems. Heck even Alias and softimage do that. Seems Hash could do the same.

PMG have a great product as do Kaydara but yes the price of the software is more than $299. But hey they do say you do get what you pay for.

I say again if Hash would just make a stable version and quit with the Hitleresque assisinations of users on thier lists Id use it again as Im sure many others would.

Lastly I agree it is true you run into problems with ANY software that need to be solved but just droppping for no reason isnt a problem I want t otry and solve. I dont run into that with LW and Messiah but there quite a few features I miss from AM.

#46

quit with the Hitleresque assisinations of users on thier lists Id use it again as Im sure many others would.

Hash will never overturn what they’ve done to the users that have been booted from their list. That marketing cataract on their record will never dissolve. Because the users who have been booted and stay in CG will never forget that bullshit. Animators are some of the most vindictive people that I’ve met. Hash has no clue the magnitude of the client damage they’ve done. If you ban me and want to play stupid ass games-what comes around goes around-then I ban your software.

#47

This is the way customers are supposed to be treated.

#48

Hate to tell ya, but that’s kind of how things tend to turn out if you report the prob and it’s something that can be fixed.

#49

Hash Inc. has done the same thing for me many times tOd. If you can show them a problem that is repeatable and makes sense. . . then a fix is usually less than a week away. MANY times.

The difference is . . . Ron at pmG is a fantastic artist and really understands your needs. (We actually contracted with him to do some rigging for us during our TV production.) AND he is the one writing most of the plugins to C4D, Max, LW, Maya etc. So when you contact pmG tech support. . . your talking to the guy who wrote the code. No middle man. No filter. Way way cool.

Steve on the other hand, while very familiar with AM, is not an artist, animator or programmer. He is Hash Inc.'s “filter” for the programmers. If Steve can’t see it and repeat it. . . then it doesn’t get put on the bug list. If Steve is pissed off at you. . . well. . . you can forget it. :wink: It is frustrating for people VERY familiar with AM to have to have your complaints dealt with in this way but. . . I can kind of understand.

PLUS!!! I’ll bet Ron only has to deal with 1/100th the number of tech support questions that Steve has to deal with. Most Messiah users are pretty hard core. Very few casual hobby users. It just works out better for Hash Inc. to have someone filtering out the “noise” for the programmers. With an in-expensive product offering FREE tech support. . . I don’t know how else they could do it. Do you?

#50

Originally posted by odinseye2k
Hate to tell ya, but that’s kind of how things tend to turn out if you report the prob and it’s something that can be fixed.

Er… I don’t know about you, but I rarely ever get a response to my bug reports. Often, the bug still exists several versions down the road, so I have to report it again… and again… and… you get the picture. I feel like I’m giving bug-reports to a black hole. Who knows where they end up. Also, Hash has never, afaik, actually thanked anyone for making the effort to submit reports (yes, effort, since the entire process is manual). It would be nice if they could even just thank the A:M community in general. However, they are quite good about fixing the bugs everyone bitches about (hence the bitching;)).

#51

Originally posted by Hookflash
(hence the bitching;)).

LOL

Right on.

:applause:

#52

Originally posted by tOd
I say again if Hash would just make a stable version and quit with the Hitleresque assisinations of users on thier lists Id use it again as Im sure many others would.

Now that this particular Bitchfest has devolved to it’s inevitable conclusion perhaps we can invoke Godwin’s Law and call it a day.
:hmm:

-David

#53

Originally posted by Obnomauk
[B]Now that this particular Bitchfest has devolved to it’s inevitable conclusion perhaps we can invoke Godwin’s Law and call it a day.
:hmm:

-David [/B]

If you dont like reading a “Bitchfest” then dont click on the thread called “e-mail from Martin Hash”

Sounds pretty easy to me.

#54

Originally posted by Obnomauk
[B]Now that this particular Bitchfest has devolved to it’s inevitable conclusion perhaps we can invoke Godwin’s Law and call it a day.
:hmm:

-David [/B]

Haha, good one David. Shame it’s so true

#55

have to agree with tOd there i’m afraid. I scrolled up and read his previous post

This is the way customers are supposed to be treated.

The thread is about 5 posts long - PMG guy asks for prob, PMG guy fixes and replies. End of story.

Very Grown Up and anyone reading the forum sees a responsible company taking customer support very seriously.

#56

It never occured to me before but don’t you think its very odd that Hash doesn’t offer a demo version of AM (unlike nearly every other 3d co.), - is it because once a prospective user sees how unstable it is they wouldnt buy it and isn’t that slightly dishonest?

#57

I’d say it’s more likely that it just takes more resources to build and maintain a demo version with a time-out or disabled features, nags or whatever else is necessary to make a demo unusable as the final product.

Also don’t forget that full-featured demos can be hacked to become free products (Hash has consistantly done its best to keep a solid link between its software and some widget for copy-protection).

#58

The reason always stated in the old days about no demo was the copy protection and hacking issue.

Long ago they would send out a demo video tape of sample animations, including the cool Hammer done for PBS by Vinton’s. I think it also included a video demo by Greg Rostami showing how A:M worked.

#59

Originally posted by odinseye2k
[B]I’d say it’s more likely that it just takes more resources to build and maintain a demo version with a time-out or disabled features, nags or whatever else is necessary to make a demo unusable as the final product.

Also don’t forget that full-featured demos can be hacked to become free products (Hash has consistantly done its best to keep a solid link between its software and some widget for copy-protection). [/B]

First of all, I’m certain that adding a time-out feature wouldn’t require any more effort than their current implementation of copy protection (which is quite effortless from a developers perspective). Secondly, it would (theoretically) be just as easy to “hack” the copy-protected exes available from Hash’s ftp as it would be to hack a demo (is it just me, or does my grammar suck?;)). Personally, I think they just don’t want to turn potential buyers away by revealing A:M’s instability in a demo version. Many people who purchase A:M won’t bother taking advantage of the “30-day money back guarantee”. It’s easier to just put it on a shelf somewhere in the hopes that Hash will eventually release a stable upgrade.

Having said that, A:M kicks ass proportionally to your experience with it, so (as I learn) I rarely find myself even thinking about giving up. I love A:M. If I have to put up with with bugs in order to use this great app, I will. However, I’ll bitch and moan about it in the process, hoping that Hash will one day give us perfection (or a reasonable facsimile);).

#60

Originally posted by Hookflash
Having said that, A:M kicks ass proportionally to your experience with it, so (as I learn) I rarely find myself even thinking about giving up. I love A:M. If I have to put up with with bugs in order to use this great app, I will. However, I’ll bitch and moan about it in the process, hoping that Hash will one day give us perfection (or a reasonable facsimile);).

/me stands up to applause.

Well said.