e-mail from Martin Hash

#21

phil3d,

I hear what your saying, but does it ever dawn on you that, that has been done over and over and over and over every single time hash does this. You said it your self, you have sent bug reports and spent time on the phone ect ect ect with the tons of other people that have done the same thing over and over and over. HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH? if every other software app out there can fix the driver problems why cant hash???

The users of AM have been beta testers for years and still nothing gets done no matter how many times you send in bug reports or talk on the phone or anything else IT NEVER GETS FIXED!!! They fix one thing and break 2 other things come on this is getting nuts. It all comes down to the policy that hash has and that steams from Martians eago and his idea that what ever is wrong with AM is not there fault and he has you hooked thinking that we have to call ATI to get stuff fixed. Let me tell you that HASH HAS TO CALL!! not the users. Hash does not call and fix these problems, instead he says its the video cards fault and the users have to call how bad is that. Lets see, LW, C4D, TS, 3DMAX, WINGS, MAYA ect ect ect all fix these problems NOT THE USERS.

You think people are being hard on HASH? Well they should be after years and years of the same BS they have a right to be mad at HASH.

WAKE UP man it is not up to you to get the software running ITS UP TO HASH.

Over lapping windows my a$$, there are tons of programs that work just fine with over lapping windows, Give me a break! If they cant fix that basic problem then you guys are in for a long long long wait for a better app.

#22

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again (more than once most likely.)

If you guys spent half the energy you spend on bitching as you did on your 3D you’d all be working at Pixar by now.

-David

#23

Hash aren’t big enough to attract a dedicated card manufacturer but Maya and XSI do recommend particular cards and card manufacturers. Surf their forums and you’ll regularly see the issue come up.

Have ANY of you sent your driver issues in to the gpu maker? I highly doubt it, as if you had this wouldn’t even be an issue by now!

A little more input and a lot less bitching just might get the job done. As some of you seem have a lot invested in the “Trash Hash” world, I expect to get lots of red and yellow particle emmiters flying my way. Have fun…

       trying to think sideways if not positively, would things make a difference if AM picked out ONE card or Card manufacturer to work around?

Maybe by trying to be as open as possible to all the different varieties- therein lies the sword? Would we , the AM users go with that Card too? At least, if you knew you had the wrong card you could pin-point errors or crash problems with a bit more knowledge?

#24

Lettuce and Hoochoochoochoo -
You beat me to it. If the problem lies in the complexity and sheer number of different drivers and card manufacturers … then a clearly recommended list of cards to be used and cards to be avoided should be compiled and endorsed by Hash. (is there one? If so, I haven’t seen it).

I think most people would not be put off by this and in fact would prefer the extra presumed ‘stability’ and the little extra cost of the card. Heck, we’re all trying to build dreams here :wink: so we’re not gonna let a video card get in the way of that right?

The outreach coming from Mr Hash is all good news for us.

#25

Originally posted by modernhorse
[B]Lettuce and Hoochoochoochoo -
You beat me to it. If the problem lies in the complexity and sheer number of different drivers and card manufacturers … then a clearly recommended list of cards to be used and cards to be avoided should be compiled and endorsed by Hash. (is there one? If so, I haven’t seen it).

I think most people would not be put off by this and in fact would prefer the extra presumed ‘stability’ and the little extra cost of the card. Heck, we’re all trying to build dreams here :wink: so we’re not gonna let a video card get in the way of that right?

The outreach coming from Mr Hash is all good news for us. [/B]

I’ve tried AM many times in the past but cant get it to be stable for me. I think the reason you dont see a list is because they dont have one and the whole video card excuse is just that. IMHO

Funny story though. I was at the Hash booth at Siggraph this year and was standing there watching the demo. I was thinking man this software has some really great features and its such a pity its not stable for me. I was watchng thier sales guy and it reminded me of an info-mercial with his $199 sign he kept holding up. NewTek, Alias nor Softimage were doing that and seemed unprofessional. Anyway while I was standing there he stopped and asked a few people what software they use. He even asked me and I replied Lightwave. His reply was “What does that cost $1500?” I said no I got it for $999. He said "well, ours is just $199 and went on with his demo and boom we were looking at his desktop. I said out loud “Thats why I use Lightwave and not AM.” He just glared at me. I just truned around and walked off as did quite a few others.

Sad really. They would make a even more money with this app if they would just fix the problems by what ever means they had to. Hire more programmers. Swallow a bit of pride. Whatever it took.

Still looks like they still like to blame others instead.

#26

Here’s what Steve wrote to the list about video cards, his personal choices, not an officially endorsed list:

http://venice.killernuts.org/animaster/viewEntry.php3?idnum=62601

Occassionally they share info about what they use. Unless users are subscribed to the list, I don’t know how they could expect to find out about these things.

And here’s another post from Steve about other hardware:

http://venice.killernuts.org/animaster/viewEntry.php3?idnum=62829

Jim

#27

it won’t solve problems overnight but the recent posts are a positive way forward. Tod, I accept you are angry but I want to try being positive.

Is someone from AM willing to show up here?

Nice post though Jim.:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

#28

Originally posted by hoochoochoochoo
iIs someone from AM willing to show up here?

If you recall some of the derogatory and insulting things that were stated on this forum about the guys at Hash (and those statements are still part of this forum), you can probably understand why they might not want to subject themselves to that kind of abuse anymore or condone it by being here.:shrug:

Jim

#29

Hash - enough BS - spend some of your profits (all if you have to) on MORE programmers and a team of professional code testers, i think that’ll do the trick - instead of limping along with an under resourced company. There - i feel better anyway, back to work.

#30

Fair point Jim but may I remind you of some other words -

Maybe if you don’t bring along the old baggage, it can work. You could always try.

I think I’ve shovelled my fair share of abuse onto AM from here. Now I feel that my spleen is vented and would like to be part of getting AM to be what it could be.

I just think we could be communicated with by Hash in a more grown up way than I can remember on the AMList. I left that list in protest, not because of anything said to me but what I saw done in terms of others mentioning problems with version 9, getting banned.

#31

Oh, I’m not saying that they shouldn’t come here, I think it would be beneficial to everyone, just that I’d understand it if they didn’t.

Unfortunately, the baggage is still sitting here in other threads, that was my intented meaning.

The list IS very different now. There is tolerance for users asking others if they are encountering the same problems. There are gentle requests for personal contact if someone posts a big general complaint of bugginess.

Hey, that was a great quote! I wonder who wrote it, must be a genius!:stuck_out_tongue:

Jim

#32

OK, before I start a love in with Jim…

Yeah Jim, you are a genius and I fell off my chair laughing.

I still think it’d be better if someone from AM showed up here. A sign of maturity from AM and a sign that there is serious intent to move forward.

I could work with that.

#33

Lyle (owner/programmer at pmG) posts to the Messiah list all the time. And people have openly slammed them left and right.

Michel Besner (Motion Builder) even posts there defending his product when we write comments about it. Some of them pretty heated and nasty!

:shrug:

#34

Yeah, it seems every CG software company gets slammed. Someone always has a problem with something. I’ve seen everyone’s recommendation to try this program or that program, and on further investigation…lo and behold…there are problems or at least someone thinks there are problems!
One of the reasons I bought A:M way back in 1994 was because it had the fewest number of complaints that I could find then.

It would be nice to see Hash participate here as it seems to be the most active discussion resource on the net for A:M.

And I, too, would like to see a standard recommendation for a video card. I don’t care how many “all-knowing-programmers” think any program should work with any card…it just doesn’t seem to work that way in the real world.

#35

If you guys spent half the energy you spend on bitching as you did on your 3D you’d all be working at Pixar by now.

Maybe… if I didn’t have to spend so much time waiting for A:M to re-start after it tanks.

Like many have said in past threads, what makes a lot of us so angry about the state of A:M, is that it has so many things to like! I was once one of A:M’s most vocal proponents. As a very active, and vocal, member of the Genesis3D game dev community, I recommended A:M to anyone who would listen. In a community dominated by 3dsmax users (the open source G3D engine includes tools for max users), I saw people banging their heads against the beast that is 3dsmax, and I saw many youngsters who were using pirated copies of max because of it’s hefty price tag. I knew, as someone who is/was VERY familiar with 3dsmax, that there was a better, easier way of doing things…A:M. I probably sold at least a dozen copies of A:M just on my recommendation and a step-by-step comparison of the workflow for G3D. A:M, coupled with Martan Sant’s excellent A:M->G3D ACT exporter, was a (near) perfect solution for indie game devs on a shoestring budget.

Then came the v9 fiasco, and my faith was broken.

So, before you assume that I’m just “bitchin’ to be bitchin’”, I just wanted to point out that I have used A:M on several large projects and on many small ones. I’ve been using A:M since it was MH3D (v5), and I have probably heard, and tried, every possible trick in the book to make it stable, right up to and including a separate hardware profile which eliminates all unneeded hardware/drivers from loading on Windows boot. (Just another hoop I’m not willing to jump thru anymore…no other apps I have, in a very long list, require me to do so to achieve stability.)

Regardless of my efforts, A:M, in its current iteration, is unusable for me. And it’s nearly unusable for several of those who bought A:M on my recommendation. So, it’s not just Mr. Hash’s reputation that’s been tarnished by Hash, Inc’s inability to produce a stable app.

And A:M’s rep in the CG community has become just as it should be…an app relegated to hobbyists willing to put up with it’s instability because they aren’t willing to spend the extra $$$ for a REAL 3D app. There was a time when this rep was NOT deserved…and I’ve felt its impact in terms of jobs lost because I was using what was considered, by the client, a sub-standard tool. I could argue that point then, but I certainly can’t now.

#36

Originally posted by Ran13
[B]
(Kevin: Can’t do that on a ATI Rage Fury Pro…it won’t run UnrealEd 3.0 due to DX requirements)

[/B]

I’m happy with what I have for the time being. It works. I’ve really slowed down spending on new things and programs over the past couple years.

#37

I’m happy with what I have for the time being. It works. I’ve really slowed down spending on new things and programs over the past couple years.

Just one of the many pitfalls of game development.
Given the avg. dev cycle of ~18 months, you have to target dev on cutting edge hardware because, by the time you’re done, “cutting edge” has turned into “run-of-the-mill”. :stuck_out_tongue:

#38

Which does bring up an interesting question… how do the PC game companies deal with this? Obviously, they have the dual problem of shooting at a moving target (state of the art obviously moves a little), and having to develop for a multitude of video platforms?

Is there a method more sublime than ‘hire a bunch of debuggers and testers?’

And unless you’re id or Blizzard, I’m doubting you get much more than a development kit from the vendors.

#39

<<Which does bring up an interesting question… how do the PC game companies deal with this? Obviously, they have the dual problem of shooting at a moving target (state of the art obviously moves a little), and having to develop for a multitude of video platforms?

Is there a method more sublime than ‘hire a bunch of debuggers and testers?’

And unless you’re id or Blizzard, I’m doubting you get much more than a development kit from the vendors.>>

Okay, you see, this is a great point and brings us back to the original question. Other applications are rock solid. Why is this app so fragile? That is the question. If it can be ans., than the stability question can be solved.
This video card thing sounds like damage control.

#40

If the overlapping windows are causing A:M’s instability, perhaps Hash should get rid of them. Use panes like everyone else.