This is the way customers are supposed to be treated.
e-mail from Martin Hash
odinseye2k
#48
Hate to tell ya, but that’s kind of how things tend to turn out if you report the prob and it’s something that can be fixed.
Wegg
#49
Hash Inc. has done the same thing for me many times tOd. If you can show them a problem that is repeatable and makes sense. . . then a fix is usually less than a week away. MANY times.
The difference is . . . Ron at pmG is a fantastic artist and really understands your needs. (We actually contracted with him to do some rigging for us during our TV production.) AND he is the one writing most of the plugins to C4D, Max, LW, Maya etc. So when you contact pmG tech support. . . your talking to the guy who wrote the code. No middle man. No filter. Way way cool.
Steve on the other hand, while very familiar with AM, is not an artist, animator or programmer. He is Hash Inc.'s “filter” for the programmers. If Steve can’t see it and repeat it. . . then it doesn’t get put on the bug list. If Steve is pissed off at you. . . well. . . you can forget it. 
It is frustrating for people VERY familiar with AM to have to have your complaints dealt with in this way but. . . I can kind of understand.
PLUS!!! I’ll bet Ron only has to deal with 1/100th the number of tech support questions that Steve has to deal with. Most Messiah users are pretty hard core. Very few casual hobby users. It just works out better for Hash Inc. to have someone filtering out the “noise” for the programmers. With an in-expensive product offering FREE tech support. . . I don’t know how else they could do it. Do you?
Hookflash
#50
Originally posted by odinseye2k
Hate to tell ya, but that’s kind of how things tend to turn out if you report the prob and it’s something that can be fixed.
Er… I don’t know about you, but I rarely ever get a response to my bug reports. Often, the bug still exists several versions down the road, so I have to report it again… and again… and… you get the picture. I feel like I’m giving bug-reports to a black hole. Who knows where they end up. Also, Hash has never, afaik, actually thanked anyone for making the effort to submit reports (yes, effort, since the entire process is manual). It would be nice if they could even just thank the A:M community in general. However, they are quite good about fixing the bugs everyone bitches about (hence the bitching;)).
Obnomauk
#52
Originally posted by tOd
I say again if Hash would just make a stable version and quit with the Hitleresque assisinations of users on thier lists Id use it again as Im sure many others would.
Now that this particular Bitchfest has devolved to it’s inevitable conclusion perhaps we can invoke Godwin’s Law and call it a day.
:hmm:
-David
tOd
#53
Originally posted by Obnomauk
[B]Now that this particular Bitchfest has devolved to it’s inevitable conclusion perhaps we can invoke Godwin’s Law and call it a day.
:hmm:-David [/B]
If you dont like reading a “Bitchfest” then dont click on the thread called “e-mail from Martin Hash”
Sounds pretty easy to me.
My_Fault
#54
Originally posted by Obnomauk
[B]Now that this particular Bitchfest has devolved to it’s inevitable conclusion perhaps we can invoke Godwin’s Law and call it a day.
:hmm:-David [/B]
Haha, good one David. Shame it’s so true
hoochoochoochoo
#55
have to agree with tOd there i’m afraid. I scrolled up and read his previous post
This is the way customers are supposed to be treated.
The thread is about 5 posts long - PMG guy asks for prob, PMG guy fixes and replies. End of story.
Very Grown Up and anyone reading the forum sees a responsible company taking customer support very seriously.
eboy
#56
It never occured to me before but don’t you think its very odd that Hash doesn’t offer a demo version of AM (unlike nearly every other 3d co.), - is it because once a prospective user sees how unstable it is they wouldnt buy it and isn’t that slightly dishonest?
odinseye2k
#57
I’d say it’s more likely that it just takes more resources to build and maintain a demo version with a time-out or disabled features, nags or whatever else is necessary to make a demo unusable as the final product.
Also don’t forget that full-featured demos can be hacked to become free products (Hash has consistantly done its best to keep a solid link between its software and some widget for copy-protection).
Kevin_Sanderson
#58
The reason always stated in the old days about no demo was the copy protection and hacking issue.
Long ago they would send out a demo video tape of sample animations, including the cool Hammer done for PBS by Vinton’s. I think it also included a video demo by Greg Rostami showing how A:M worked.
Hookflash
#59
Originally posted by odinseye2k
[B]I’d say it’s more likely that it just takes more resources to build and maintain a demo version with a time-out or disabled features, nags or whatever else is necessary to make a demo unusable as the final product.Also don’t forget that full-featured demos can be hacked to become free products (Hash has consistantly done its best to keep a solid link between its software and some widget for copy-protection). [/B]
First of all, I’m certain that adding a time-out feature wouldn’t require any more effort than their current implementation of copy protection (which is quite effortless from a developers perspective). Secondly, it would (theoretically) be just as easy to “hack” the copy-protected exes available from Hash’s ftp as it would be to hack a demo (is it just me, or does my grammar suck?;)). Personally, I think they just don’t want to turn potential buyers away by revealing A:M’s instability in a demo version. Many people who purchase A:M won’t bother taking advantage of the “30-day money back guarantee”. It’s easier to just put it on a shelf somewhere in the hopes that Hash will eventually release a stable upgrade.
Having said that, A:M kicks ass proportionally to your experience with it, so (as I learn) I rarely find myself even thinking about giving up. I love A:M. If I have to put up with with bugs in order to use this great app, I will. However, I’ll bitch and moan about it in the process, hoping that Hash will one day give us perfection (or a reasonable facsimile);).
Wegg
#60
Originally posted by Hookflash
Having said that, A:M kicks ass proportionally to your experience with it, so (as I learn) I rarely find myself even thinking about giving up. I love A:M. If I have to put up with with bugs in order to use this great app, I will. However, I’ll bitch and moan about it in the process, hoping that Hash will one day give us perfection (or a reasonable facsimile);).
/me stands up to applause.
Well said.
PJC
#61
Originally posted by Hookflash
Having said that, A:M kicks ass proportionally to your experience with it, so (as I learn) I rarely find myself even thinking about giving up. I love A:M. If I have to put up with with bugs in order to use this great app, I will. However, I’ll bitch and moan about it in the process, hoping that Hash will one day give us perfection (or a reasonable facsimile);).
Yeah, having Maya, Cinema and AM sitting here, there’s gotta be something to be said for each new project I do, I almost always go to AM to work.
- pjc
phil3d
#62
I love the folks on this forum.
We’ve got:
- Folks who don’t use AM at all, but love to have something to bitch about.
- Folks who used AM years ago, and still enjoy bitching about it.
- Folks who use other apps, and enjoy “mines bigger/better/stable” games, so they join in the bitching.
- Folks who use AM now - but only old version XX from “back when it was sort of stable” who enjoy bitching about the changes in the program.
- Folks who have the current version of AM, but “can’t get it to work”, and will never REALLY try (contact Hash), but are having a great time bitching about it anyway.
- Folks who got “kicked off the list” (for breaking the list rules) who enjoy bitching about Hash and “how I waz treated” but will never write to Steve and ask to get back on the list. (pride ya know)
- Folks who are convinced that the programmers at Hash have no idea what their doing, and are programmers themselves, so they bitch about how “they could do it better”
AND… - Some newbies wondering what the hell is going on., but not-yet-bitching about anything. (don’t worry, I’m sure they can be converted.
- A tiny, tiny group of consistent users, who would like for eveyone to stop bitching long enough to find out where the real problems are, and pass that info to the people that can do something about it.
Ha, ha look at group 9, what a bunch of idiots!, the ONLY way Hash will fix AM is if we spend all of our time bitching about their program on a forum that they never read. We’ll FORCE um to do it by telling everyone what a bad program it is. They won’t get away with it… no, we’ll ruin their business and then they’ll be sorry. Ya, you just wait and see… I will, … really… MOMMY!!!
Wegg
#64
There is another group.
Thats the group that is in total denial.
I was in that group for years. Defending Animation Master’s at every turn. It was a religion. I couldn’t see how anyone could use anything else and I would make smart assed comments in forums and news groups that were disigned to put down anyone who had opinions that were contrary to my own.
I’m glad I’m not in that group any more.
This is an open forum in amongst a whole bunch of other forums under the banner of being a community of 3D artists who can come in and talk about whatever they want.
This is more to my liking.
This is where I like to hang out.
I have personally been able to learn a lot about the newer versions of AM in this forum. I have seen some amazing work. I have vented my anger, shared triumphs, and participated in discussions that I think as a whole are a lot more “real” than any other community of AM users out there.
Real means both the good and the bad.
It saddens me that all you have chosen to lump anyone who has dared to “bitch” into these snide little smart assed categories.
But hey. . . thats YOU venting. Isn’t this great!?! Isn’t it cool!?!
dfaris
#65
phil3d = Steve???
Just kidding. I agree with Wegg I like this form the way it is with the good and the bad. I think people are ticked off because time after time Hash has failed them. It’s not that reports were not made to hash it’s that the reports seem to go on and on for the same problems and the beta testers (users) get nothing fixed and when things are fixed hash seams to break them again 2 or 3 releases down the road.
phil3d
#66
Wegg, “I” don’t have anything to vent about HERE. What I do have is a background in a field of development where we had to deal with issues of the same sort. There (ToolBook II CBT development), we are dealing with a MUCH more expensive program and the kind of support that makes Hash look like gods. Getting direct help is almost impossible, the systems that we are supposed to run the app on do not have the hardware neccessary to support it. The corperations (Boeing for one) remove required core componants from their builds of MS Windows for security and control reasons. The development app crashes randomly and violently.
Do you think I would EVER have gotten any of my training projects for Boeing compleated if I had spent my time bitching on some forum about these things? Instead there’s a users group that WORKS TOGETHER to do whatever is required to get the job done. That doesn’t mean we love all things about the program, but it DOES mean that bug reports are made, things are slowly changed, and most important, the training is delivered.
If you could read some of the messages I have sent to Steve, as deadlines for projects loomed and AM bugs have forced me to work 24-7 on a way to save projects that should have gone smoothly, I’m sure you might reconsider how you have me labled.
As Martin has gone to lengths to extend the extruded olive branch of peace to you, do you think there’s any chance we might see you back on the AMlist making your contributions?